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Wednesday, August 27, 2008

Potter County Townships Take Notice

Townships Beware!


Everyone is in favor of renewable energy!


After 1 1/2 years of study and by majority vote, the Potter County Planning Commission passed a wind facility ordinance and forwarded it to the Potter County Commissioners for fine-tuning and adoption. The commissioners have studied the turbine issue now for seven months.


They have studied reports, visited numerous industrial wind installations, personally talked with industrial wind developers, local government leaders, and people whose homes have been devalued and their lives seriously changed for the worst because of turbines being sited too close to their homes.


The county's ordinance in its current draft form is not intended to, nor will it, prohibit wind turbines in Potter County. Arguably it does protect non-participating landowners to some extent by stating how close a wind turbine can be sited to their property line and how much noise is allowable.


The reason for this letter is to point out that some township boards of supervisors are considering wind turbine ordinances that are much different than the county's proposed standards.


Townships have the power to override the county's ordinance and if you examine what has taken place in Homer Township, as well as what is being proposed by the supervisors in Sweden and Hebron townships, you may be alarmed to discover what little protection will be provided.


Township supervisors have a very difficult job as they take care of so many responsibilities and balance so many competing interests. It is not realistic to expect the township officials to be able to thoroughly investigate the complex topic of industrial wind energy, much less enforce an ordinance and protect the rights of the property owners who are not leasing land to wind energy companies.


It's pretty clear to anyone who is paying much attention that the industrial wind developers have been seeking to exploit the long delay by our Potter County Commissioners in working on a countywide ordinance.


Now that the commissioners have made their proposals public, it should be evident to all township residents that this issue is much too complex, and its implications far too serious, to allow your elected supervisors to rubber-stamp a local ordinance that is so accommodating to those who are out to exploit your township.


At the very least, township supervisors throughout Potter County should agree to delay any further action on local ordinance while the competing interests have their say during the public comment period on the county's ordinance.


Any action that is taken hastily at the township level could lead to developments that local residents might regret for decades to come. Now that the county has acted, it's time for the townships to put on the brakes and closely monitor the battle that is sure to begin at the county level.


Please contact your supervisors and respectfully request that they delay taking any formal action. At a time like this, it is important for Potter County to stand together.


Sweden township, Tuesday, Sept. 2ND at 7 pm at the meeting hall,

located at 129 Cherry Springs Road, Coudersport, PA. 814-274-8829.


Hebron township, Thursday, Sept. 8TH at 8 am at the township building

located at 22 Whitney Creek Road, Coudersport, PA. 814-274-7306.


This article was provided by "Save God's Country" and I classified it as news because it was news to me that townships could override the county on this legislation. When we get 10,20, or 30 comments on a post, I stop manually posting them to the main page--something that I do manually for your convenience--because it is too much to scroll through for those looking for news.

Anonymous said...

1 if you are going to continue calling this a news site please mark your editorial comments as such otherwise people will confuse your anti-development opinion and rhetoric as news or facts. Notice how once the PRO-PROGRESS folks start specking up all our comments get pulled and just Jim's comments remain. (thought I do give you credit for posting our comments at all)

2 paying your taxes late is one of the cheapest loans you can get even my local government teacher told me so (yes Jim I did pay attention) obviously if he was not paying them he would not be on the list year after year, because I or someone else would have bought his land for back taxes.

3 Mr. Mulcahey was not convicted there for is Innocent, if you have never been to court for something someone thought you had done wrong you probably not done much with your life.

4 DCNR has found no impact will be caused to the dark sky.

5 Wind power is viable in this area and makes the most sense locally due to grid constraints (see comments above someone dose read what I say after all and maybe even did their own research.)

6 From the looks of that house above I could build it for 45,000 or less. The thing that has the most impact on property value is proximity to work. The quality of jobs in the area will dictate property values that and taxes cheaper taxes higher home values. There are at least 15 house's in Coudersport listed with agents at this moment that are also over priced and we do not have single wind mill here.

7 no negative health impacts. Just because you want to be sick dose mean you are sick or maybe it dose.

8 TVA would never have happened without government subsidy. There are better investments out there then building any power generation facility (even if your making power burning tires people pay you to take). But our government dose not want to be a monopoly power generation facility so subsidies will happen.

9 Camp security sounds like a wonderful business to get into, call Gary Leech in Galeton he will gladly sell you a package if he's still doing that anymore.

10 I have seen Eddie post again and again after him self maybe it just makes us think there are less of you then there really are so. Lets put it to a vote. No not a web poll I mean a real vote. not just the walmart yes signs a real vote the entire county, and only the county. (sorry ed move here and you get to vote, and you are more then welcome to move here) Lets vote line by line on the commissioners proposed regulation, and lets see what happens. What ever happens I will agree to, if you all agree to the same.


Please click on comments below to read the rest of the comments for this post


56 comments :

Anonymous said...

More anti devolopment crap. I thought this was a new site?

MDH said...

YES! The people in these townships should contact their supervisors. They need to contact them and let them know that they aren't going to put up with all the BS that SGC is spewing out and to stand up for their rights as a township to do what they feel is right for their citizens.

This is a Commonwealth and the power is with the lowest level of government to do what it feels is right for its citizens. It is not up to the County to dictate to the townships or boroughs what they should do.

It's time for the positive & progressive thinkers in this county to unite and stand up and be heard so that this county can move forward. Its time to stop this county from becoming a ghost town which it is well on its way to being. It's time to show SGC that they aren't the powerhouse they would like to think that they are and to show them they aren't going to continue to bully the people of Potter County into their line of thinking.

Anonymous said...

Beware, innovation, it's a comin'!!
This probably do away with all of our backward thinkin'!

Anonymous said...

Looks like news to me too!

Anonymous said...

The less than intelligent township supervisors of Homer Township jumped the gun with passing their own ordinance before the county had even decided what to do all because one of the supervisors father wants to put turbines on his land. This is the same man who is on the tax delinquent roles EVERY year so his goal is to make $$, not find alternive energy. Don't let your supervisors to do the same thing and ruin your property value! Luckily, there are no windmill companies interested in Homer Township because the proposed site didn't pass the wind test. Thank God for small favors!

Anonymous said...

I think wind can be a great source of power. I'm not knocking what they're trying to do. I'm just pointing out some discussion about things that have happened in other areas with wind energy and this particular developer. I think that there is some concern about the developer. I was reading /. (news for nerds) the other day and saw some interesting...things.

Quote of interest:
Theres a good pile of evidence that this Texas wind thing is one giant con so that Oil man Mr. Pickens can use newly created government power of eminent domain to snatch up land and sell his water pet project under the radar. Like they always say, follow the money. Link to substantiate: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_25/b4089040017753.htm?chan=magazine+channel_top+stories


Link to discussion:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/08/08/27/2217221.shtml

Link to NY Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/27/business/27grid.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Summary:
"The Times reports on the problems of adding wind farms to the power grid. Because of the grid's old design, it can't handle the various spikes that wind farms sometimes have, and there's no efficient way to currently move massive amounts of that power from one section of the country to the other. Further complicating things is the fact that under current laws, power grid regulation is a state matter, and the Federal government has comparatively little authority over it right now. Critics are calling for federal authority over the grid, and massive new construction of "superhighways" to share the wind power wealth nationally. Quoting the article, 'The dirty secret of clean energy is that while generating it is getting easier, moving it to market is not.'"

Anonymous said...

I don't see anywhere on the pccp website where it tells us the benefits of this progress thing to Potter County.

Am I not looking in the right spot on the web site?

I would like some facts, not emotion or opinion to make up my mind on this issue. Just the verifable facts please. Thanks

Anonymous said...

I live in Homer township, And I know exactly who you are talking about. I think the personal bashing you are doing is uncalled for, and more of a jealous fit than anything.
So Let me enlighten you some of the facts.

1. The "supervisor" you are bad mouthing has actually done a lot for the township. More than most have done in previous years.

2. Yes his Dad does own a lot of property, and yes his name is in the paper for taxes, right along with the Rigas Family and many more. Owing taxes does not mean you don't have money. as a matter of fact they pay a lot more in taxes than most do because they own a lot of property.

3. AND what the heck is wrong with trying to make money?? people sitting home on welfare are the ones you should be bad mouthing, not the people who are working and paying taxes !! Do you complain about the people down town selling drugs?? I doubt it.


4. And lastly, if you don't like it move to another township. Are you the one who had been harassing that family a couple years ago?? sounds like.


The Adelphia crash caused your property value to go down 2 years ago, and I didn't hear anyone complain about that. But then again it was Adelphia that made your property value double in price anyway. The value is finally coming back down where it should be anyway.

And last of all:

MONEY IS WHAT MAKES THE WORLD GO AROUND BUDDY, SO EITHER JOIN IN OR GET OUT OF THE WAY.

Anonymous said...

"people sitting home on welfare are the ones you should be bashing, not the people who are working an paying taxes"......um, if they were paying their taxes they wouldn't be listed on the tax upset sale listing year after year.

Mike Mulcahey said...

There has been a lot of noise by a few individuals. My two cents as one involved in tryingto bring wind energy to Potter County:

There are thousands of wind turbines in the US and around the world. Numerous health and safety studies have been performed as have studies relating to property values.

Look to unbiased sources of information and you will find:
1) there are no medical science based studies finding the ill health effects of Wind Turbine Syndrome.
2) the noise level from a wind turibne is imperceptible at a distance of about 1200 feet
3) medical science based studies regarding low frequency noise conclude that low frequency sound is perceptible only by sensitive seismic equipment and not by humans
4) Property values do not go down due to the presence of wind turbines. In fact, according to a twonship supervisor that spoke to a group of us in Bliss township in NY near Arcade, property values have gone up due to the fact that the township was able to lower taxes because of the revenue form the wind energy project.

Wind energy is a real opportunity to improve our lives fom the perspective of the planet and the local economy. I personlly don't think the status quo in our will provide the kind of life and prosperity we all look for. Let's not let a few people who don't want to look at the windmills ruin it for the rest of us. What the County Commissioners have proposed will take away that opportunity. I suggest we all support the townships efforts. Its an economic opportunity which will not only benfit the landowners but will surely provide additional payments to local twons and the County.

Anonymous said...

But Mike even if your 4 points are 100% accurate, you still haven't addressed the fact that wind will not work in this area. It's not efficient and if you take away the subsidies the developers would not be here. Let's assume wind is the greatest clean energy in the world (it's not) but that doesn't mean it would work here. Just this week a massive new project of solar thermal energy was announced in NM. Not your typical solar project because as opposed to solar cells creating electricity directly the solar cells will create heat to boil water which will create steam and you know the rest. This will slightly solve the problem of the sun going down and energy going away. But my point is that while this solar thermal idea is an awesome project no one would ever suggest that we put it in PA as we just don't have the requisite sun light. Same thing with the wind. If you want to develop wind energy in the wind corridors of our country then I am behind you 100%, but trying to develop them here just isn't logical.

Anonymous said...

We don't know the impact wind farms will have on the tourism potential of Potter County. Most assume it will damage it, but we cannot say that with certainty. We do know however that the tourism potential up here is excellent. We also know that the wind potential is marginal at best. Why would we try to develop a marginal resource at the expense of a excellent resource. Most folks want to improve the local economy so don't suggest that just because you are anti wind you are anti progress. By installing a bunch of turbines the economy of a few will increase but quite likely at the expense of the overall economy. How is this any different than the oil companies currently making a gazillion dollars while the overall economy is in the dumps. To me the pro-wind folks really are all about becoming the "oil companies" at the micro level and making money while the rest of the Potter County economy suffers as a result of damage caused to the tourism industry. mark

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous - I don't harass anyone in Homer Township. I'm just stating the facts about people who can't afford to pay their property taxes looking to make a quick buck at the expense of the rest of us since they don't actually want to get a real job. Yes the Adelphia crash hurt everyone and the cost of real estate in Coudersport is still WAY too high for what you have to put up with but windmills for profit is not the answer. The township supervisor also collects a wage from the taxpayers of Homer Township. He's not doing it on a volunteer basis.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Mulcahey -
Weren't you involved with the Adelphia scandel? What, if any, are the benefits of windmills to me since they are not on my land, other than to lower my property value? I really don't understand how windmills will "improve our lives".

Anonymous said...

While I disagree with Mr Mulcahey on the wind farm issue, the comment about him being involved in the Adelphia scandal is not needed. First, he was acquitted on all charges and therefore deemed innocent by a jury. But also, let's have a spirited, logical, factual debate on this extremely important issue, wind farms, without casting stones and personal attacks.

Anonymous said...

Mike,
Please don't attempt to trivialize the amount of people who are trying to save Potter County by insinuating that it's "a few people"

There are no medical science based studies yet, most likely because they have not developed a cure for it yet. However there is evidence, from the people living adjacent to the turbines that they are affected.

Under the Federal Rules of Evidences what they say has merit.

Are they making it all up?

Even the American Wind Energy Association states low frequency noise can be heard inside of a home. See quote below----

"The danger of hearing damage from wind turbine low-frequency emissions is remote to non-existent. Generally there little acoustic energy much above about 4000 Hz so ultrasound is not a problem. <100 Hz) noise can, under the right circumstances, be responsible for annoying nearby residents. Typically, except very near the source, people out of doors cannot detect the presence of low-frequency noise from a wind turbine. They can, however if the noise has an impulsive characteristic, "hear" it within homes in nearby communities again under the right set of circumstances.

Property values do go down

As for property values, you did not quote the time frame measured, if they were averages, mean or mediam prices. If they were county wide or specific homes adjacent homes.

Ask any real estate appraiser if they adjust for view and location. They do.

Real life experience indicates that two similar homes, one adjacent to a 400+ tower ft wind farm, with a view of the farm, the non-existent noise and vibration you speak of, flicker etc compared to a home 5 miles away with out those influences are going to have very differing values due to the negative impacts of the turbines.

People just wont pay the same. Unless you go through life with a seeing eye dog.

See survey & article below.

It has to be an apple to apples comparison in order to prove something. General statements cannot apply because the turbines are not adjacent to all homes.

Any realtor desperate enough to list and selling property neaby needs to have their E&O Insurance paid up, increase the limits and have a rock solid disclosure.

And again, if you have followed any threads on this blog, you would not state that a few people are opposed just because we dont want to look at them or as the soft propaganda term you use "windmills".

These are 410 ft steel, wind generating turbine machines. It's a more accurate visual.

PROPERTY VALUES DECREASE BECAUSE OF TURBINES!

Opponents of industrial farms have long known that property values decline when wind turbines are erected. Strong evidence now exists that allowing the construction of industrial wind turbines near residential properties causes a decrease in the value of said property.
According to a survey taken by the Lincoln Township (WI) Moratorium Committee, 74% of survey respondents said they would not build or buy within one quarter mile of wind turbines; 61% stated they would not build or buy within one half mile of wind turbines, and 41% of survey respondents said they would have to be two or more miles away from any wind turbines in order to build or buy residential properties.

Sales within one mile away from the turbines prior to construction in this area were at 104% of assessed value. Properties selling in the same area after construction of the turbines sold at 78% of assessed value. Nothing changed in the area except the construction of the turbines, so it is reasonable to believe that the 26% drop in value was due to turbine construction alone.

A case in point is the property located at 935 S. Bingham Road in Steward, Illinois, a rural area approximately 60 miles west of Chicago. The house was built post-turbine construction, on speculation that it would sell once built. Here are the particulars of construction:

- New, ranch-style construction on 5 acres of land
- Hardwood floors
- Ceramic baths
- Vaulted ceilings
- Gas fireplace
- 3 bedrooms
- 18' x 15' master bedroom
- Large kitchen with 8-foot breakfast bar
- 2 baths - master bath has Jacuzzi and walk-in shower
- Double sinks in kitchen
- Full basement
- Central air
- 48' x 50' barn, with water and electric
- Attached 2-car garage

The house was built in the fall of 2005, and was originally priced at $329,900.
It was reduced in price in April 2006, to $325,000
It was reduced in price again in June 2006, to $319,900
It was reduced in price again in August 2006, to $314,900
It was reduced in price again in February 2007, to $309,900

The property has been listed by four realtors so far - as of November 30, 2007, no offers for the property have been made.

At least one realtor has refused to even list the property, stating that it would be a waste of time and money to attempt to sell the property, as any prospective buyers have noted concerns about the wind turbines surrounding the house.

These turbines were only 260 feet tall and have a 1400 foot setback.
Photos here

http://www.protectillinoisenvironment.com/

Anonymous said...

To improve the economy of Potter County, let's concentrate on getting the camp owners back. I have noticed ALOT of camps either being sold or just not used anymore and unfortunately, camp break-ins seem to be on the rise. Who wants to own property and/or camps here if their property is not safe? We need to get these thugs behind bars so people once again feel safe investing in property here.

Anonymous said...

Mike seems to dodge the argument of the tax incentives which is fueling this.

Anonymous said...

ANONYMOUS,

What does Mr. Mulcahey being involved with the Adelphia scandal( he was aquitted by a jury of his peers by the way) have to do with the windmills? I think we are all aware of the Adelphia issues but I have to say it was poor taste on your part to bring that into this discussion!!! Courtney Jones

Anonymous said...

Because I think it goes towards Mr. Mulcahey's character that there was even enough evidence to take him to court in the Adelphia scandal. They didn't just pick him out of a list of employees to file against. His "facts" cannot be trusted. He's in this to make a buck and that's it. I'm sure he could care less about alternative energy or the future of Potter County. If everyone thinks the economy is bad around here now (Potter County is the second poorest county in PA) wait until the windmills come! Hopefully none of us will be alive to see that happen and destroy this beautiful county!

Anonymous said...

"We need to change our ways. We need cleaner energy and start towards it now.

Wait.. whats that? Oh, you want to do it in my back yard? THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA DONT DO IT!!"
-everyone

You never get something for nothing.
Maybe windmills will be a bit of an eyesore... too bad. Perhaps they will serve as a constant reminder of just how many sacrifices we need to make to start cleaning up our environment. (hey there evening trash burners! how are you?)

Wake up. Quit being selfish. Accept these are needed and start discussing proper implementation as to have a minimal impact on our beautiful county.

Anonymous said...

Accept that these turbines are needed!! What a silly statement.
Conservation is needed....
"Start discussing proper implementation as to have a minimal impact on our beautiful
county"...why was no one talking
about any minimal impact 9 years
ago when this plan began. No one was talking or sharing or divulging..
AES has never been willing to
share one tiny fact about these
turbines.
With the minimal wind capacity
my bet is that they would most
likely give us the new 550'
Turbines that are planned for parts of the Appalachian Ridge.
No one will be plucking the BEST
sites for turbines. Sorry but
that's not how industry operates.
It will all be about PROFITS
for AES and the land owners who lease. If it was for the good of
Potter County why would so few be
benefitting from it??
Keep in mind.
No Jobs
No taxes
No new residents to pump
up the economy
No grid substantial enough to carry wind...
show be the trail of positives!!!
List for me the positives
other than WE NEED WIND..the same old drone.

Anonymous said...

"Because I think it goes towards Mr. Mulcahey's character"

And we will not know anything about YOUR character now will we Mr./Mrs./or Ms Anonymous? He has every right to his opinion but once again "if you are not for us you are against us"!

"His "facts" cannot be trusted. He's in this to make a buck and that's it."

That's nice, let us all keep in mind only the anti wind turbiner's FACTS can be trusted!

"At least one realtor has refused to even list the property, stating that it would be a waste of time and money"

Let us keep in mind when the SPCA has money to spend the realtor's did nothing to help them find property to buy, Ya I'd use them as an example too!

You might as well get a grip on the fact that your bullying and use of fear and tearing apart someone's opinion (and that is what it is because as far as I am concerned none of us are experts on this matter)is not going to change anyone's mind.

Either you are for the clean green energy of wind turbines that are going to be in Potter County or you are not for them.

Either way our county commissioners are the ones running for office again in 4 years and we as tax payers will let them know how we feel about them hindering progress in our county!

I just hope that AES sues Save Gods Country instead of the county as I would hate for my tax dollars to be wasted...maybe your little group of concerned citizens had better get a million dollar umbrella just in case, ya think?

Not you too T. Boone? said...

Be you a Boonie, Hoopie, Greenie or NIMBY, a new cowboy is in town. That goes by T. Boone Pickens. Just your average Joe Cowpoke right?

Here's a couple of quotes from a June 08 article interview he gave to Fast Company Magazine.

For those who can't stand to read it all here are the highlights:

Industry people are comfortable with me.

It's about money, first thing.

But not on my 68,000 acres ranch. They're ugly. I think we have found the ultimate NIMBY.

If the wind don't blow, well thats a problem.

Without a tax break it's a dead duck.

1 Million to politicians, but who's countng

Money to influence bills to benefit me? - Say it aint so Boone!

Higher gas taxes - yup thats me I did that.

Yielding to political influence - again me too.


Quotes from interview:

Interviewer - Listening to all of your environmental ideas, it sounds like you're the Al Gore of Texas Republicans.

Pickens - Don't connect me to Al Gore! A lot of what he says just doesn't make sense. Texans know I'm environmentally directed in some ways. But I'm realistic about what's going on. Industry people are comfortable with me. Gore talks about getting rid of the combustion engine. I don't talk about that.

Interviewer - You recently announced plans to build the world's largest wind farm, in the panhandle. Is that about money or the environment?

Pickens - Money! First thing, it's about money. Of course, I'm also a good environmentalist. I can pass the saliva test. But I'm not going to go do a 4,000-megawatt wind farm for the environment first and money second. I'd rather go give money someplace else. You're talking about $10 billion.

Interviewer - And you'll do all this on your beautiful 68,000-acre ranch?

Pickens - I'm not going to have the windmills on my ranch. They're ugly. The hub of each turbine is up 280 feet, and then you have a 120-foot radius on the blade. It's the size of a 40-story building.

Interviewer - What about when the wind doesn't blow?

Pickens -
[Pickens purses his lips and starts puffing.] That's the problem with wind generation. You've got to supplement it with a gas-fired or coal-fired source so whoever buys it gets continuous 24-7 generation.

Interviewer - What happens if Congress doesn't extend the $20-per-megawatt-hour Production Tax Credit for wind -- set to expire December 31? On a project this size, that's an $80,000 deduction every hour at full capacity.

Pickens - Then you've got a dead duck. It would be hard to go without a subsidy. But they'll probably pass it.

Interviewer - You put $1.2 million into the last Texas elections, didn't you?

Pickens - I don't know. I don't keep track.

Interviewer - The advocacy group Texans for Public Justice alleged that you used that money to get a bill passed that allowed you to create and control the water district without local voters' approval.

Pickens - That's not true. I never asked any elected official for that. It's bullsh*t.

Interviewer - You've advocated a higher gasoline tax. What do you think the tax ought to be?

Pickens -
I don't have a formula. I've just said, if it were up to me, I'd raise the tax to kill demand. And the people who are going to be most hurt by it, give them a break on payroll taxes or something else.

Interviewer - Is ethanol part of the solution?

Pickens -
Ethanol is political. That's what Bob Dole told me in 1989. He called me up and said, "Quit talking down ethanol. You need to understand something: There are 21 farm states, and that's 42 senators. Those senators want ethanol." He said, "Are you getting the picture?" And I said, "Yeah, it's coming through pretty clear." [Dole confirms that Pickens's account is "probably accurate."]

The article Link:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/126/a-mighty-wind.html?page=0%2C0

One colorful dude, easy to sign on with, looks good on the tele.

Kinda paints a different picture though... huh?

Should this not end the discussion on if this push for wind turbines is political, tax credit driven and done for the money?

Anonymous said...

Wait.. whats that? Oh, you want to do it in my back yard? THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA DONT DO IT!!"

The person that post something like this is not bring personaly thretened by wind turbines. It is easy to condem others, in the name of green, when it doesen't directly effect you. That is only a small part of the issue. The larger part, and if you would pay attention, is that wind power is failing to deliver sustainable power all over the world and because of this poor preformance and poor record there is no reason to have wind turbines anyplace, and that includes Potter County and yes, all our back yards.

Anonymous said...

"Accept these are needed....." WHY?!?!?! Why should I accept that whn no one here has ever addressed the fact that wind doesn't work in Potter County. We do have to make sacrifices i couldn't agree more, but let's make sure we are making the correct and logical sacrifices. Possibly sacrificing our tourism based economy so that a few folks can make a few bucks is not a sacrifice that we need or should
be making. If people want to use their land in Potter County for clean energy then take the land and plant hybrid poplars. Hybrid poplars will likely be one of the primary sources of biodiesl stock in the future when we realize that corn based ethanol was not a good idea, but cellulose based is. Unlike for wind energy, PA has an excellent climate for plantations of hybrid poplars. Also, they remove carbon from the air, can be used as awesome streamside buffers, prevent erosion, etc. So all of you pro wind folks here that are supposedly only seeking a clean environment there are other much more suitable to PA ventures that you could be pursuing (many of which can be profitable as well). Yes, if we were in Texas we could be promoting wind first, but people you have to realize that clean energy is not a one size fits all proposition. And as we know from some of the stuff folks people wear at amusement parks, football games, etc improperly fitting clothing can be quite damaging to the visual environment Mark

Anonymous said...

Every one is missing the most important issue. The township supervisors can over ride the county. Sweden and Hebron township have both announced a much less protective wind ordinance than the county.
If you live in these townships, Sweden or Hebron, and are happy with the idea of 0ne or hundreds of 410 ft high industrial wind turbines(wind mills is a cute name but that is not at all what they are)and you don't mind if your property is devalued, even to the point of being unmarketable and your peace and quite, clear skies and beautiful views will be a thing of the past, then do nothing. Sept 2 nd and Sept 8TH will be your magic date.
If, on the other hand, you like things to be the way they are and enjoy living in one of the most beautiful places in potter county, than you need to let your township supervisors no imediately!
Tell your Supervisors not to over ride the county.
The meeting dates are:

Sweden township, Tuesday, Sept. 2ND at 7 pm at the meeting hall,
located at 129 Cherry Springs Road, Coudersport, PA. 814-274-8829

Hebron Township, thursday, Sept. 8TH at 8 am at the township building located at 22 Whitney Creek Road, Coudersport, Pa. 814-274-7306.

As it is said "speak now or forever hold your piece".

Anonymous said...

"The right wind isn't here"

I keep hearing (reading) this. Can anybody post data of wind at 300' to 450' high. All studies I have found are at ground level. The Sweetwater video showed the wind blowing lightly and the Wind Turbines were doing their job. I don't think a Company would spend the time, effort, and money to put up Wind Turbines if the right wind wasn't here. IMHO
Thanks
Haily

NOBLOWNOGO said...

I vote we listen to T Boone:

Its about the money first

It doesn't work without the tax credits

They don't work if the wind don't blow.

Isn't enough, when the wind messiah tells you these things? or is it time to look for a new idol?

Don't get sucked in by wind turbines people?

Anonymous said...

1 if you are going to continue calling this a news site please mark your editorial comments as such otherwise people will confuse your anti-development opinion and rhetoric as news or facts. Notice how once the PRO-PROGRESS folks start specking up all our comments get pulled and just Jim's comments remain. (thought I do give you credit for posting our comments at all)

2 paying your taxes late is one of the cheapest loans you can get even my local government teacher told me so (yes Jim I did pay attention) obviously if he was not paying them he would not be on the list year after year, because I or someone else would have bought his land for back taxes.

3 Mr. Mulcahey was not convicted there for is Innocent, if you have never been to court for something someone thought you had done wrong you probably not done much with your life.

4 DCNR has found no impact will be caused to the dark sky.

5 Wind power is viable in this area and makes the most sense locally due to grid constraints (see comments above someone dose read what I say after all and maybe even did their own research.)

6 From the looks of that house above I could build it for 45,000 or less. The thing that has the most impact on property value is proximity to work. The quality of jobs in the area will dictate property values that and taxes cheaper taxes higher home values. There are at least 15 house's in Coudersport listed with agents at this moment that are also over priced and we do not have single wind mill here.

7 no negative health impacts. Just because you want to be sick dose mean you are sick or maybe it dose.

8 TVA would never have happened without government subsidy. There are better investments out there then building any power generation facility (even if your making power burning tires people pay you to take). But our government dose not want to be a monopoly power generation facility so subsidies will happen.

9 Camp security sounds like a wonderful business to get into, call Gary Leech in Galeton he will gladly sell you a package if he's still doing that anymore.

10 I have seen Eddie post again and again after him self maybe it just makes us think there are less of you then there really are so. Lets put it to a vote. No not a web poll I mean a real vote. not just the walmart yes signs a real vote the entire county, and only the county. (sorry ed move here and you get to vote, and you are more then welcome to move here) Lets vote line by line on the commissioners proposed regulation, and lets see what happens. What ever happens I will agree to, if you all agree to the same.

Anonymous said...

In any event, some of you, maybe most of you posting today have apparently forgotten why you call it "God's Country"

Sorry, but it's a pretty sad state of affairs to call oneself an environmentalist when you can't stand up for the one resource right above your heads...

The Night Sky...

God's Creation!

Solomon's words for the wise said...

eddiestardust has left a new comment on your post "Potter County Townships Take Notice":

To the last person that posted:

Cherry Springs Dark Sky Park is a valuable resource to both Potter County and Pennsylvania and the United States.

Because of that it has been given the title of only the

SECOND INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY PARK ON THIS PLANET.

This weekend, Penn State will hold their first Astronomy festival which they are planning to hold as an annual event.

Cherry Springs also hosts the Cherry Springs Star Party each June and The Black Forest Star Party each Fall.

Not to forget the "Stars & Parks" programs held each year and all those who come each DARK-OF-THE-MOON Weekend to view the skies above Cherry Springs.

Now, I've said this a few times but I will say this again:

We are a REVENUE STREAM!

We spend MONEY here.

And that should register with all of you because there just aren't too many sources of revenue in Potter County anymore.

Please remember what's at stake here..it's not the Wind Turbines we care so much about ...

It's the STROBE LIGHTS ON TOP OF THE TURBINES!

And it's not one wind farm we are concerned about it's

AT LEAST EIGHT, inside and all around Potter County!

Add these to the simple fact that development of this kind usually leads to more development and that it will be much, much harder to talk about something called

LIGHTING ORDINANCES..

Within a very few years Cherry Springs will be just another site a nice memory that won't be visited.

And if we don't visit, you don't partake of our hard earned money.

The choice is yours...

Go with another Electric Utility that lies, lies and lies again or be very GREEN!

Anonymous said...

Got a question fer ya Eddie!!!

Is the price tag on the "Cherry Springs Dark Sky" project 'bout 13 million (tax dollars) when said and done??? If not,,,,,could you post the final price tag?????

ENIS,,,a Native Potter Countyian

Anonymous said...

Let me put my argument another way:

Do you own the night sky?

P. Edward Murray

Anonymous said...

"It's the STROBE LIGHTS ON TOP OF THE TURBINES"

One would think that the lights on Denton Hill would have more of an effect.

The lights I saw on wind turbines in PA were more of a beacon softly blinking red light not a strobe light.

Anonymous said...

"To improve the economy of Potter County, let's concentrate on getting the camp owners back."

I could be wrong but maybe the camps are not full due to the "deer management" program. And the fact that Gods Country now has a lot of Posted property where hunting is no longer allowed, as well as snowmobiles. Just a thought but it makes sense to me.

Anonymous said...

"The person that post something like this is not bring personaly thretened by wind turbines. It is easy to condem others, in the name of green, when it doesen't directly effect you. That is only a small part of the issue."

Wait just one minute, I thought we would ALL, I mean the entire county will suffer if the wind turbine's are installed. What do you mean by "personaly thretened"?
You mean we will not all be directly effected like all the previous posters have stated?

Anonymous said...

"It's the STROBE LIGHTS ON TOP OF THE TURBINES!"

PCVA;
"We did successfully lobby DCNR for the study on the effect of the lights on the dark sky park at Cherry Springs State Park. The study showed less light polution impact from the wind farms than any of the 4 or 5 of the surrounding towns, even if all the lights on all the windmills blinked at the same time."

Sounds to me like either Eddie the star gazer missed the findings in this report or chose to ignore them!

MDH said...

In regards to the last post;

There is more light pollution in Potter County created by the outdoor lighting in the Boroughs of Galeton, Ulysses and Coudersport than the lights on the wind turbines will ever create. Don't think so, then come sit in my backyard and look at the light pollution caused by Northern Potter School.

The white strobe lights on the towers are on only during the day. At night they switch to a slowly pulsing RED light. Just like on the State's 800 MHz tower that sits pretty much in my back yard that by the way the Commonwealth never asked me if I cared if they put it there or not.

As for if wind power will or will not work in Potter County, what's your point? Are you the one making the investment? Are you a stock holder in AES? Why do you care is so much as 1KW of power is generated or not? I'm sure that AES isn't looking to put wind turbines here just so they can put up with your crap. Even it your assumption of their desire for the almighty government dollar is correct I would think by know if that was the only reason they were willing to build here I'm sure they would have found a more accommodating location by now.

And to the above remark about the property that isn't selling for what was it, $385K? Have you driven around Coudy lately? How many empty houses are there from former Adelphia employees that have left the area? One of the points in the Sweetwater video that you seem to be overlooking is that houses are selling like hotcakes and they are building more. What, that can't happen here? Maybe you should head up to NY state and check out the properties there near some of the wind farms. Seems there are some places that don't even bother to put signs out because the houses aren't on the market long enough to bother. But then, maybe that's just another nasty wind farm rumor I've heard.

Anonymous said...

Boy, if only we could funnel all the wind being blown around on this comment board!

I don't know about you, but I'd say we could stand a bit more "global warming" in Potter County. Wasn't all that hot this summer.

Anonymous said...

One poster said above that they hoped that "Save God's Country" gets sued..

Pretty ridiculous statement because there are a bunch of other folks all across the state and country that support Cherry Springs including the entire

Pennslyvania Dept of Conservation and Natural Resources.

Better include Governor Rendell too and that would include the Director of Cherry Springs.

Oh and you can include me too and that will be the day because although I have little right now, I think I can find a heck of a lot of folks to help...

I would be looking for an environmental lawyer and since I happen to know that

Robert F. Kennedy Jr thinks along the same lines as we do, maybe we would approach him among others...

So go right ahead, we will take you and all comers to court and I think it will be a great trial and you will see us all over the media too!:)

Anonymous said...

'SECOND INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY PARK ON THIS PLANET.'

Well I would think that Montana would be an option for this as well. Have been there, "Big Sky" beautiful, lots of stars as well.

Anonymous said...

"Every one is missing the most important issue. The township supervisors can over ride the county."

Are you sure about this? Do they just think they can or can they really? I'm not being a smarty pants about this just wondering. Usually the regulations have to be stronger not laxer as in State and Federal regulations, as my rule of thumb.

Anonymous said...

MDH - The point about whether the wind will work here is that (and it's been said 100 times so read and comprehend for once) if it only generates marginal electricity is it worth the risk that the benefits from marginal electricity will be offset by the damage caused to our tourism based economy.

Am I the one making the investment here - YES. I already haved. I purchased a house here, I spend my money here. I raise my kids here and therefore have invested their future here. I own a business here that brings tourists to the area that spend money not only at my establishment, but at gas stations, restaurants, stores, etc. Every weekend I have 50 families spending money up here (it will soon be 100 families) at all of the local establishments. This money goes directly into the local economy. The AES money likely will not. Why - because there is no guarantee that the local landowners will spend it here. They may save. They may spend it elsewhere. My customers spend it here because they are HERE on vacation and WANT and HAVE to spend it HERE. I have likely made more of an economic investment than you or AES has in this area!!!

It's a fixed sum game. Our resources are limited. If we were in a Prime wind corridor then perhaps we pursue wind technology at the expense of tourism, but we are not. So its not as simple as saying if AES wants to invest here then let them. I would hope you have enough common sense to see this. Mark

Anonymous said...

This is the other study that did not cost the DCNR ANY MONEY by folks who live IN Pennsylvania:


Protecting the Night Sky Resource of Cherry Springs Dark Sky Park

Stan Stubbe and Gary Honis, P.E.

Pennsylvania Outdoor Lighting Council

http://ghonis2.ho8.com/POLCforDCNR.htm

Anonymous said...

The fact is that it's not just ONE wind farm, it's at least EIGHT or more.

And if you are not an astronomer, how the heck do YOU know what is and is not light pollution or what is and is not acceptable?

Trouble is that you are NOT an astronomer and you want to steam roll over us without so much as a thought.

If the shoe were on the other foot, you would be wailing much more than we are.

We are trying to protect a resource you want to tear it down.
You don't even want to try to understand what we are talking about.

Here are some clues...some reasons why we don't want ANY MORE LIGHT near Cherry Springs!

US News & World Report:

Turning out the lights:

http://www.usnews.com/articles/science/environment/2008/03/14/turning-out-the-lights.html

The New Yorker:

The Dark Side

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/20/070820fa_fact_owen?currentP

The Philadelphia Inquirer

Let there be less light

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/health_science/daily/20071022_Let_there_be__less__light.html

Protecting the Night Sky Resource of Cherry Springs Dark Sky Park

Stan Stubbe and Gary Honis, P.E.

Pennsylvania Outdoor Lighting Council

http://ghonis2.ho8.com/POLCforDCNR.htm

Anonymous said...

Here is part of the:
Constitution
of the
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
Natural Resources and Public Estate
Section 27.

"The People have the right to clean air, pure water, and to preservation of the natural, scenic, historic and esthetic values of the environment. Pennsylvania's public natural resourses are the common property of all the people, including generations yet to come. As trustees of these resources, the Commonwealth shall conserve and maintain them for the benefit of all the people."

What is happening with the wind turbines will change this precious land forever!! It will deny our children and their children's children the chance to see Potter County for what it is. Beautiful!
These monsterous wind turbines will soon be outdated just as those huge TV dishes were back in the seventies.
Please, please don't support this temempory "wind rush". Tell your township supervisors to set tight and let the Counties leadership protect this county. That is there mission statement: "To protect the health, safety, and welfare of our residents". That is what they are doing as well as honoring the Constitution of Pennsylvania.
You can't buy the kind of beauty we have here in Potter County, nor can you ever get it back once it is gone.

Anonymous said...

To MDH,

You may be interested to know that the Pennslyvania Outdoor Lighting Committee (POLC) presented a program in July about Light Pollution and how to control it in Potter County.

Education about Light Pollution is a continuing process for those associated with Cherry Springs and the Dark Sky Fund that helps to fund some of the work for Cherry Springs.

Statewide, members of the POLC regularly hold meetings and make presentations to counties and townships.

Astronomical organizations across the state and the nation do some of the same kinds of things.

Resources come from the International Dark Sky Association headquartered in Tuscon, Arizona begun by a PhD Astronomer.

P. Edward Murray

P. Edward Murray

Mike Mulcahey said...

To address some of the comments from my earlier posting:

Comment:
"Wind will not work in this area"

The development of a wind energy project takes many things to come together. One, of course, is average annual wind speeds sufficient to turn the windmill blades with enough frequency and strength to produce revenue from selling electricty to make the investment pay off. Other factors include access to transmission lines to take the electricity to end users and electricity retailers like Penelec to buy the electricty that is generated.

Another requirement is the investment necessary to purchase and erect the windmills. Each windmill, installed, costs in the neighborhood of $3 million. That kind of investment will not happen unless the investment can be repaid with a reasonable return. Several wind test towers have been installed in the county to provide potential investors with information to base their investment decision.

But ultimately the determination as to whether or not wind will work in this area will be made by the experts that advise the people that make the large dollar investments. My opinion, and I am not an expert but I have done a fair amount of research, is that average annual wind speeds between 7 and 7.5 meters per second are necessary for a viable wind energy project in our area. Some high level wind maps ara available on the internet if you would like to look at them, the lnks: http://www.pawindmap.org/htm/download.htm.

I don't think the local governemnt should enact rules to prohibit wind energy based on an assumption that wind is inadequate. That determination should be made by the experts.

Comment:
"We don't know the impact wind farms will have on the tourism potential of Potter County. Most assume it will damage it, but we cannot say that with certainty."

We cannot say with certainty, but we shouldn't be much different than other places in the US. A collection of articles from what I believe to be unbiased newspapers can be found at: http://nhsec.state.nh.us/2006-01/35.%20Wind%20Power%20and%20Tourism.pdf from the New Hampshire Secretary of State web site.

Comment:
"I really don't understand how windmills will "improve our lives"."

Virtually every kilowatt of electricity from wind turbines replaces a Kilowatt of electricity from burning fossil fuels. The effects of burning fossil fuels negatively impacts all of us. Reports detailing the effcts of burning fossil fuels by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Changecan be found at http://www.ipcc.ch/

Additionally, bringing temporary construction jobs, some permanent jobs and adding revenue to the tax rolls reducing the burden on the rest of us I think will improve our lives.

Comment:
"Property values do go down"

The posting points to an article at the website http://www.protectillinoisenvironment.com/. The posting highlights the care needed to locate unbiased information. The home page of this site states: "Our current, most pressing concern is the existence of, and the proposed construction of, industrial wind energy installations in the state of Illinois. The irreparable ecological damage, resultant visual pollution, and the terrible divisiveness that wind farms cause in both communities and families far outweigh any possible benefit their insignificant and entirely unreliable contribution to our ongoing energy needs may bring." Obviously an anti wind energy group. Entitled to an opinion, but not unbiased.

Saying it doesn't make it so. Information from unbiased source is more helpful than quoting an unknown source. Still, the example of the house that didn't sellhighlight price reductions amounting to 6.1% of the original asking price. And who knows what else is occuring int he community. One house is hardly a sampling size to base decisions on.

To my knowledge three unbiased studies have been performed to assess the impact on property values. they can be found at the following websites:

http://www.repp.org/articles/static/1/binaries/wind_online_final.pdf

http://nhsec.state.nh.us/2006-01/34.%20Property%20Value%20Studies%20-%20Bard%20-%20REPP.pdf

and

http://www.catenergy.com/pdf%20files/Kittitas%20Wind%20final.pdf

Anonymous said...

Mike,
On property values,of course it's on a pro preservation site, Where would you expect it to be? AES or Gamesa's site?

Your stated unbiased sources, when you read the fine print, are either run by, funded or conducted by pro renewable energy foundations, companies and labs dedicated to the advancement of renewable energy technology.

Don't pass them off as unbiased please.

One of your sources couldn't even be troubled to leave the office and conducted a phone and paper survey for their report.

What you call an unknown source in my comments was from the Lincoln Township (WI) Moratorium Committee Town of Lincoln's property records. Hardly unknown

Here's the site with excerpts from the report. Your comments after reading it are welcomed please. It deals with the real townspeople who are living there.

http://www.aweo.org/windlincoln.html

You comment that "one house is hardly a sampling size to base decisions on" When the true wording said it was a case in point, (an example) For the above paragraph outlining the drop in values.

You twisted that to meet your needs.

And finally back to your biased sources for property values. These reports typically include a 5 mile radius or view shed.

When the dataset is expanded to 5 miles it will include more sold properties which are impacted less than the closer properties are. The further out you go the better it looks for the pro wind crowd's data.

The real damage is to the properties located in the immediate kill zone. If a property does not sell, it is never even counted in any of the data. These are the ones impacted by noise, flicker etc.

This is why the wind companies have buy out programs for the people who can't sell but want to move.

Further, These reports include towns like Howard Texas. Flat as a pancake, no trees no rolling hills.

No one moves to Howard for the view.

In Potter County the view amenity has a far greater value than Howard Texas. It contributes much more to the value of a property here.

So taking data from Howard Texas or some other unlike area and saying it will also apply to Potter County and saying the same will happen here would not be prudent. Apples to Apples always Apples to Apples

You also did not comment on the quote from the AWEA which states low frequency noise can be head inside of a home. Here it is again.

Even the American Wind Energy Association states low frequency noise can be heard inside of a home. See quote below----

"The danger of hearing damage from wind turbine low-frequency emissions is remote to non-existent. Generally there little acoustic energy much above about 4000 Hz so ultrasound is not a problem. <100 Hz) noise can, under the right circumstances, be responsible for annoying nearby residents. Typically, except very near the source, people out of doors cannot detect the presence of low-frequency noise from a wind turbine. They can, however if the noise has an impulsive characteristic, "hear" it within homes in nearby communities again under the right set of circumstances

Anonymous said...

Eddie Star Gazer said:
"One poster said above that they hoped that "Save God's Country" gets sued."

If memory serves SGC blasted the county officals with threats quit some time ago about sueing the county IF they allowed the wind turbine industry to come into Potter County. The poster is saying they hope the county does not get sued by AES and that AES sues SGC!

"Pretty ridiculous statement"

I thought the same thing when SGC made the statement about sueing over the wind turbine industry now the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it?


"Robert F. Kennedy Jr thinks along the same lines as we do"

I guess I would not want him in my corner! We all know how many morals the Kennedy family has...their past actions have proven this for us!

And the big question for Eddie Star Gazer is...:

"Is the price tag on the "Cherry Springs Dark Sky" project 'bout 13 million (tax dollars) when said and done?"

Did not notice you ever giving an answer to this bloggers question, did ya?

13 Million Big ones??? And this is not even a productive industy in Potter County, WOW!

Anonymous said...

I sure hope all these pro wind energy people writting comments on this site are writting letters to our County Commissioners on a weekly basis.

I have been, as well as our State Rep. Martin T. Causer as they need to be aware of how we feel on this matter.

The commissioners will get your letters by mailing them to:
Susan Kefouver, Paul Heimel, and Doug Morley
Potter County Commissioner
Gunzberger Bld.,Main Street
Coudersport, PA 16945

Let our thoughts, comments and questions be heard!

Anonymous said...

Ed can post as often as he chooses.
He's an astronomer of note and
has a very vested interest in
OUR/his Cherry Springs State Park
and the dark skies facilities.
Few of you seem to have one bit
of pride in the fact that we have
a National Treasure. You're too
busy carping and making senseless
misinformed nasty comments.
As long as a few want to drag us down with negative misinformation,
the rest will suffer.
Mike Healy, if you cannot find employment, why do you stay in what is clearly not your family
homestead? Why is in this Wind
project for you? what have you
been promised? There is something
a bit odd about your whole
campaign to harm what has been
home to many of us for centuries.
If I was in your position, which I am not, I'd move and get a job that
supported my family and just move on. And I do not mean that in a negative way...but why are you hanging your hat on the Wind Turbines as your salvation???
Kind of unclear.

Anonymous said...

FYI:

"You're too
busy carping and making senseless
misinformed nasty comments."

IF you have been reading the posts for over a month then you will see WE started with positive friendly comments...SGC comments were demeaning and nasty..."We will win" attitude! And calling land owners that have signed on with AES all kinds of names and nick names if memory serves!


"As long as a few want to drag us down with negative misinformation,
the rest will suffer."

I said it before and I will say it again, Potter County tax paying citizens have every right to voice their opinions. If it happens to be different than others that are posting, well that is just the way it is.
And as far as "misinformation", I do not think so. The white lights on the wind turbines are on during the day NOT at night, the soft red lights are what will be viewed at night. And I doubt they will be viewed at night from Cherry Springs. BUT since this opinion is not what AES whats to hear and we do not jump on their banwagon then we are money hungry, misinformed, anti SGC and the list goes on and on.

Anonymous said...

"BUT since this opinion is not what AES whats to hear and we do not jump on their banwagon then we are money hungry, misinformed, anti SGC and the list goes on and on."

OOPS, not enough coffee yet. Should have said not what "SGC" wants to hear!

Anonymous said...

And I do not have any problem with Potter County residents voicing their opinion...

They should.

HOWEVER...

I would expect them to understand what a National Treasure they have in their own county...

Cherry Springs Dark Sky Park.

And that I would also expect them to realize that losing it just because Electric Utilities want to place their turbines is pretty pathetic.

Again, I say:

Please read the Commisioners requirements that Jim posted here on his Blog.

Many of us just don't see the necessity of placing these turbines in Potter because it's just not that windy.

No one is really going to profit except a few landowners.

Jobs won't come out of this as they will need to import.

And in fact, one of the largest
"Green" wind farm companies

GAMESA

(which is a Spanish Company NOT AMERICAN) is laying off many employees already.I know this because GAMESA is in Falls Twp. here in Bucks County.

Very interesting as you would expect if wind farms are being proposed, the source of the turbines would be rather close.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

Of course then there is the question of power as in the grid.

We were reminded how antiquated it really is a few years ago by that great power outage that effected even JFK airport and consequently effected the whole world.

A recent finding published in the NY Times told of a wind farm in NY State that idles a lot..

Why?

Because the grid is just not capable of handling the load.

And you and AES and the reat WANT more?

You've just got to be kidding...

You see, I think it boils down to one thing...

Do you TRUST ELECTRIC COMPANIES?

I don't ...

Not after THREE MILE ISLAND I don't.

Not when they are preparing to raise rates across at least some parts of Pennsylvania 50% to 60% as told to us by a PA State Rep.

Now who was born yesterday?

The folks who don't want it in Potter or the folks that do?

There are lots of ways to go green.

We could, as Al Gore says, use

RESIDENTIAL turbines that are a great deal smaller with solar on our roofs..everyone's and sell that power BACK!

I think that's really the way to go.

Use windfarms sparingly, where they can generate the most power..on the plains states like Texas and the Dakotas and just off the Great Lakes and seashores.

And use solar etc, as I alluded to before in other areas.

To me, it sounds like the electric companies don't want to do this either?

P. Edward Murray