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Friday, September 12, 2008

100 Attend Potter County Wind Turbine Hearing

WFRM NEWS:About 100 people attended last night’s public hearing on Potter County’s proposed wind turbine ordinance held in the court house.

Each speaker was allowed three minutes to express his or her opinion. and the meeting lasted about three hours.

An estimated 19 opposed the county’s regulations saying that they infringe on property rights and might have and adverse effect on the local economy.

Another 14 or so, said the regulations were not stringent enough and expressed concern primarily about the noise generated from the giant windmills. More....

157 comments :

Anonymous said...

There were dozens of people who were concerend about the wind farms, but for one reason or another, did not speak. I regret myself for not speaking up, but I can give you this report.
95% of those that were opposed to the county ordinance were those who have signed lesses for wind turbines. The other 5% that were pro wind proved in their statements that they did not understand most of the issues, but yet they chose to speak. There clear message was: It is my land, I can do what I want on it and to HEll with the my neighbor.
Hopefully the commissioners will will adopt the ordinance as written and protect those that are being attacked by these monsterous machines.

Anonymous said...

One of those 19 that opposed the county regulation was Bob White of the AES wind corporation and you know he has nothing but good intentions for Potter County and the health and safety of the residents. Certainly money would never be his primary goal.

Anonymous said...

Consultant?Let me save the taxpayers some time and money.You can't over regulate without proof positve of a safety hazard above and beyond that of any other industry unless these regulations are applied across the boards. Result.......Huge lawsuit....Stone cold winner.....More wasted tax dollars!

MAC said...

"You can't over regulate without proof positve of a safety hazard above and beyond that of any other industry unless these regulations are applied across the boards."

What kind of proof is needed? I'd really love to know, because that is now my goal - to find the requisite proof and pass it on to the Commissioners, so they have the documentation they need to protect those of us who can not afford to fight a mega-billion corporate in court. How many other industries make so much noise, you can't sleep at night? Or flash rhythmic shadows across your home such that it causes motion sickness?

Anonymous said...

A company that would sue the county for protecting its people, doesn't sound like a company we need in Potter County anyway.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the people who say the turbines are so noisy they won't be able to sleep at night should try standing under one first. I have done so and the 5 mile an hour breeze that was blowing made more noise than the turbine. Educate yourselves by exposing yourself to the noise before parroting someone elses comments.

Anonymous said...

If there is no noise from wind turbines, than there is no reason to worry about the wording on decible limits in the proposed ordinance. Also in a 5 mile an hour breeze the turbine may have been turning, but were producing no electricity. Good thing we had a conventional power plant running or we would have been in the dark. At only 20% effecient that would be 80% of the time.

Anonymous said...

"You can't over regulate without proof positve of a safety hazard above and beyond that of any other industry unless these regulations are applied across the boards."

You bet ya! This will effect every industry in Potter County once it is on the books, PERIOD!

"One of those 19 that opposed the county regulation was Bob White of the AES wind corporation and you know he has nothing but good intentions for Potter County and the health and safety of the residents."

I attended the meeting as well and from what Mr. Bob White stated his company DOES care about all people in communities. The company and Mr. Bob White just proved it with the wind farm project in Tioga County that had NO regulations in place.

We can have peace and clean green energy if some people would be more open minded and not "My way or No way", this is why we have an energy crisis!

Just because some people think they will be an eye sore does not have anything to do with safety and health, PERIOD!

Anonymous said...

The person that posted this:

"Just because some people think they will be an eye sore does not have anything to do with safety and health, PERIOD!"

has to be a lessor that does not care about his neighbors or lives away from where the turbines are proposed. Bob White of AES said, as he spoke at thursdays meeting that "there is noise from the turbines." That is a health issue!!

Turbines need to be keep back from homes, that is why the commissioners are proposing setbacks.

Pennsylvania exports 40% of the electric it produces. Pa.is also starting construction on a 650 million dollar coal burning plant in Karthaus, Pa. in Clearfield county that will operate at 95% efficent and will burn the left over material from current coal burning plants that is now dumped into our rivers. In the 4 years of construction it will employ 1000 people and after construction will employ up to 60 people.

PA. does not need the eradic unreliable electric that wind turbines generate. They operate at only 20% efficency. Once again that is 80% of the time not producing power.
To relate to this: If a farmer went to the seed store and was told that the seed he was buying to plant would only germinate 20% and then only if it gets exactly the right amount of water and exactly the right amount of sun, I am sure he would not buy it. That is all the wind turbines will produce, average 20% and then only if they get at least a 8 mile an hour wind. There is no reason to have wind turbines in Potter County. There is just no reason!!!

Anonymous said...

Bob White's job is to get the wind turbines built so his company can make money.

It was a strategic move for AES to be so benevolent and abide by the loose state model guidelines.

They would have to have had setbacks of a minimun amount anyway just to cover themselves for in insurance and engineering purposes. ie: tower falling, ice sling, having a blade break etc.

MAC said...

"Maybe the people who say the turbines are so noisy they won't be able to sleep at night should try standing under one first. I have done so and the 5 mile an hour breeze that was blowing made more noise than the turbine. Educate yourselves by exposing yourself to the noise before parroting someone elses comments."

The noise produced by turbines does not project down, it projects out, up to a mile away.

MAC said...

"We can have peace and clean green energy if some people would be more open minded and not "My way or No way", this is why we have an energy crisis!"

The "my way or no way" attitude is heard loudest from landowners who keep preaching "you can't tell me what do to with my land!" Where are the Christian ethics that should be part of all decisions that affect our neighbors? How is it morally okay to impair your neighbor's quality of life? Most of the people I talk to about wind power simply want it built where no ones health will be compromised. So what there's remedy under the law, as one speaker said Thursday night. How many of us have enough money to fight a power company in court? If Mr. White is really so concerned about people, he wouldn't be talking to farmers who's land is within one mile of neighboring homes.

Anonymous said...

Let AES & T. Boone Jr put their money and himself behind the claims they make

Let Bob White stand up and become personally & civily liable for his speech and claims, that no harm will be done to the surrounding people, if he so sure there is no harm.

Let AES put into escrow an amount equal to the appraised value of the nearby homes, pre-wind turbine construction.

If the owners of these homes decide to sell and cannot sell on the open market within an acceptable marketing period they will be bought out by the escrow fund.

If they enjoy the Turbines and do not decide to sell after a period of sometime, the money is returned to AES with interest.

Let them step up to show their good faith and back their allegations if they are so sure it's a good thing and no harm will come.

Remember what Ozzie Myers said.

Then I would respect him & them more. Bob White has nothing at risk here.

Anonymous said...

"The noise produced by turbines does not project down, it projects out, up to a mile away."

Guess I should have written a pharagraph to give you the exact location and discription of every location I was present at the wind mill farm, give me a brake!

There are some of us that have taken the time to spend days observing wind turbines but that is not good enough either as one poster asked if we spent the night in a house there too!

It is just never enought for some of you people that have only read articles or seen pictures at a corner restaurant,is it?

erkseen said...

I couldn't agree more. If these thing are so beign, put your money where your mouth is. Give me a guarantee my health and property values will not be harmed. Bob White of AES was asked that very question. His answer was NO. He said he could not, and would not make that guarantee. This whole notion of "it's my land I can do as I please" is not right. It is just wrong for a few people to profit at the expense of their neighbors. In fact PA does have codes to address this. The Second Class Township Code and the PA Municipalities Planning Code give the authority to protect citizens from bad or harmful development.

Anonymous said...

I'm amazed that Bob White was permitted to speak at all. Wasn't this a forum for the citizens of Potter County for voice their concerns...not some industrial mouthpiece who might lose his job if this project fails? And isn't the Tioga project on hold because the grid can handle the sporatic energy coming off of wind turbines already on the system in NY state?
And by the way...sound travels through the ground...you need to stand further away from a turbine to "feel" the sound it generates through the substrait, regardless of what you do or don't hear right underneath.

MAC said...

"Let AES put into escrow an amount equal to the appraised value of the nearby homes, pre-wind turbine construction. If the owners of these homes decide to sell and cannot sell on the open market within an acceptable marketing period they will be bought out by the escrow fund. If they enjoy the Turbines and do not decide to sell after a period of sometime, the money is returned to AES with interest."

What a great idea! Thanks for posting this.

Here's what strikes me as so ironic about wind development in Potter County. There's no question that winds here are marginal to poor. What we DO have are areas that have been untouched by humans. Our own country website markets Potter County as "God's County. Untouched. Unspoiled. Untamed." We stand a chance of losing what we do have for something that will do little if any good. Sad.

MAC said...

"There are some of us that have taken the time to spend days observing wind turbines but that is not good enough either as one poster asked if we spent the night in a house there too!"

Spending days observing can in no way compare to the testimony of those around the world who have to live nearby wind turbines. I'm guessing you haven't spent nights inside a home only a few hundred feet of a turbine, or you would have said so. We haven't lived the experience ... yet ... so we have to pay attention to those who are living it. And, add to that studies that document turbine generated noise resonate louder inside a home than outside, if the home is too close. It is a sad statement about the American culture that so many are so quick to hurt others, all for the sake of money. If this were only about finding clean energy, we'd all be focused on finding remote locations to build these power installations. But since it's more about money than ethnics, people are going to get hurt.

JDChitester said...

Can some one please tell what the "Health Concerns" are with the wind turbins?!?

Also where you get the information from, ie; website, newspaper, hersay. Thanks

Anonymous said...

Let's define the Health, and Welfare Terms. Since this will be a legal document the Correct Dictionary to use would be a law dictionary, sound logical so far, I hope so.

From Black's Law Dictionary 6th edition:

Page 721 - HEALTH - State of being hale, sound, or whole in body, mind or soul, well being. Freedom from pain or sickness.

Page 1594 - WELFARE - Well-doing pr well being in any respect; the enjoyment of health and common blessings of life; exemption from any evil or calamity; prosperity; happiness.

Page 685 - GENERAL WELFARE - General term used to describe the goverment's concern for the health, peace, morals and safety of it's citizens.

Page 1130 - PEACE - for purposes of breach of the peace statute, peacer is that state and sense of safety which is necessary to the comfort and happiness of every citizen, and which goverment is instituted to secure. State vs Boles.

Term within lawF of breach of peace, means tranquility enjoyed by citizens of the municipality or community where good order reigns amoung it's members.

Public Piece and Quiet - Peace, tranquility, and order and freedom from agitation or disturbance, the security, good order, and decorum guaranteed by a civil society and by law

Page 1065 - NUISANCE - Nuisance is that activity which arises from unreasonable, unwarranted or unlawful use by a person of his own property, working obstruction or injury to right of another, or to the public, and producing such material annoyance, inconvenience and discomfort that law will presume resulting in damage. State ex rel. Herman v. Cardon That which annoys and disturbs one in possession of his property, rendering it's ordinary use or occupation physically uncomfortable to him, e.g smoke, odors, noise, or vibration. Patton v. Westwood Country Club Co

Let AES prove adjacent land owner's rights will not be infringed.

Anonymous said...

Sure JD.

The article at the bottom of this comment outlines the issues.

The health effects are just begining to be realized over the last few years, I do not believe there is a "so called double blind peer reviewed, 9 out of 10 doctor" recommended scientific study because it is so new.

I do know that neither AES or other wind salespeople has come forth with any information to disprove the claims by the impacted people.

So if we have do not have a "scientific study" to prove or disprove the effects. We must work with what is out there. Papers and commentary & testimony from the people themselves, etc..

Because there is a lack of a "scientific study" does not mean the health hazards do not exist.

Alot of information is contained in this blog. if you scroll back thru the pages and click on the threads the comments contain web links, video links of people living with this nuisance, reposted articles and source material etc.

But here are a few to get you started. Also a google search of "wind turbine health effects" will produce results.

http://www.windturbinenoisehealthhumanrights.com/

http://www.aandc.org/research/wind_noise_pierpoint.html

This is not even an anti wind site, it's a green site that says Scientific evidence is sparse, but also says - 1.2 miles is the ideal minimun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePZO76z2iBY

http://cleantechnica.com/2008/08/18/wind-turbines-and-health/

http://www.viewsofscotland.org/library/docs/wtnoisehealth-1.pdf


And finally here is Nina Pierpont, MD, PhD testimony before the NY legislature of NY.

Wind Turbine Syndrome

Testimony before the New York State Legislature Energy Committee

March 7, 2006

Nina Pierpont, MD, PhD

MD, The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, 1991
PhD, Population Biology, Princeton University, 1985
BA, Biology, Yale University, 1977
Fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics

www.ninapierpont.com




I am here to talk to you today as a physician-scientist about a clinical phenomenon called Wind Turbine Syndrome. This is relevant to today’s hearing because it critically affects implementation of the RPS (Renewable Portfolio Standard) in terms of the siting of industrial wind turbines. Current siting practices (which are solely industry-driven) disregard public health. The supervision of the legislature—of this committee—is needed to create siting standards to protect the citizenry, all the citizenry, including citizens who are rural, old, ill, impaired, and very young.

Federal agencies are trying to put the brakes on willy-nilly wind turbine construction, citing, for instance, wildlife issues. The GAO (Government Accountability Office) last fall told US Fish and Wildlife to get involved. The National Academy of Sciences in April 2005 initiated a 20-month study on environmental impacts whose final report is due in December this year. There also needs to be a focus on human health, and the state needs to step up to the plate in terms of regulation.

I live in Franklin County, the poorest in NY State. Two years ago, after passage of the RPS, wind energy companies showed up there in force, as they have in all the poor, rural parts of the state. They showed up with no controls whatsoever, unregulated by either the legislature or NYSERDA (New York State Energy Research & Development Authority). Our town boards, made up of farmers, teachers, corrections officers, etc., were told, “You guys handle this,” by our state representatives. I got involved as a responsible citizen and physician. Over the last 1½ years I have done a lot of reading, research, and interviews. I have spoken at town board meetings and before the St. Lawrence County Legislature, and published alone or with my husband (a retired university professor) numerous editorials and letters to the editor in local newspapers. My focus has been health issues and to some degree wildlife, in which I also have credentials in my PhD.

I get a lot of slander and abuse from the wind salesmen. Their favorites are saying that my abundantly referenced and footnoted articles, like the one before you (note: a separate handout), have “no evidence,” or that I think wind turbines cause mad cow disease. The latter smear came from a town meeting in Ellenburg, NY, in October 2004, when I presented information culled from the medical literature on possible effects of low frequency noise. This included a paper out of the UK linking low frequency sound to prion diseases by a complex and highly speculative mechanism. I was very clear how speculative it was, but apparently the concept of something being speculative was over their heads, including over the heads of wind salesmen in the room.



Dr. Pierpont on Wind Turbine Syndrome March 7, 2006 Page 2

I am not for or against the RPS. I’m an intelligent person and I support renewable energy. I am not here to shoot down wind energy, which probably has its place, though that place is not near people’s homes or near schools, hospitals, or other locations where people have to sleep or learn.

I would like to stress that these are not “farms.” One doesn’t “farm” wind any more than one “farms” water in a hydroelectric dam or “farms” neutrons in an atomic plant. These are large, industrial installations. They make large-scale, industrial noise. “Jet engines” is the most common description I hear in surveying people—a jet engine that doesn’t go away and which you can’t get used to.

A syndrome in medicine is a constellation of symptoms and findings which is consistent from person to person. Defining a syndrome is the first step in investigating any new disease. The symptom cluster has to make sense in terms of pathophysiology—there has to be a plausible mechanism in terms of how the body and brain work. Defining a syndrome, and making that knowledge available to the medical community, lets other doctors go from scratching their heads over weird presentations of illness which are coming through their offices, to being able to validate and name what is going on and start to do something about it. It also opens the door to epidemiologic studies to define prevalence and risk factors, which will guide prevention and treatment.

Describing and documenting symptoms is the province of physicians. So is research on the causes of diseases. Deciding whether people have significant symptoms is not within the expertise of engineers or specialists in acoustics, even when the symptoms appear to be caused by noise. We physicians appreciate the noise data which engineers provide, but this data has nothing to do with whether people have symptoms or not. One British acoustics expert, Dr. Geoff Leventhall, is especially outrageous in this regard, insisting that people “can’t” have symptoms because turbines “don’t,” he says, produce low frequency noise. His fallback, for which he is well paid by the industry, is that people make up their complaints. But he’s not trained to distinguish whether people are making up their complaints, or to know about the range of physical, psychiatric, and neurological symptoms people might have. A related point: the hallmark of a good doctor is one who takes symptoms seriously and pursues them until they are understood (and ameliorated). This includes symptoms related to the brain, our most complex organ—symptoms which may be neurologic, psychiatric, or physical.

Three doctors that I know of are studying the Wind Turbine Syndrome: myself, one in England, and one in Australia. We note the same sets of symptoms. The symptoms start when local turbines go into operation and resolve when the turbines are off or when the person is out of the area. The symptoms include:

1) Sleep problems: noise or physical sensations of pulsation or pressure make it hard to go to sleep and cause frequent awakening.
2) Headaches which are increased in frequency or severity.
3) Dizziness, unsteadiness, and nausea.
4) Exhaustion, anxiety, anger, irritability, and depression.
5) Problems with concentration and learning.
6) Tinnitus (ringing in the ears).

Not everyone near turbines has these symptoms. This does not mean people are making them up; it means there are differences among people in susceptibility. These differences are known as risk factors. Defining risk factors and the proportion of people who get symptoms is the role of epidemiologic studies. These studies are under way. Chronic sleep disturbance is the most common symptom. Exhaustion, mood problems, and problems with concentration and learning are natural outcomes of poor sleep.



Dr. Pierpont on Wind Turbine Syndrome March 7, 2006 Page 3



Sensitivity to low frequency vibration is a risk factor. Contrary to assertions of the wind industry, some people feel disturbing amounts of vibration or pulsation from wind turbines, and can count in their bodies, especially their chests, the beats of the blades passing the towers, even when they can’t hear or see them. Sensitivity to low frequency vibration in the body or ears is highly variable in people, and hence poorly understood and the subject of much debate.

Another risk factor is a preexisting migraine disorder. Migraine is not just a bad headache; it’s a complex neurologic phenomenon which affects the visual, hearing, and balance systems, and can even affect motor control and consciousness itself. Many people with migraine disorder have increased sensitivity to noise and to motion—they get carsick as youngsters, and seasick, and very sick on carnival rides. Migraine-associated vertigo (which is the spinning type of dizziness, often with nausea) is a described medical entity. Migraine occurs in 12% of Americans. It is a common, familial, inherited condition.

To keep our balance and feel steady in space, we use three types of input: from our eyes (seeing where we are in space), from stretch receptors in joints and muscles, and from balance organs in the inner ear. At least two of these systems have to be working, and agreeing, to maintain balance. If the systems don’t agree, as in seasickness or vertigo, one feels both ill and unsteady. Wind turbines impinge on this system in two ways: by the visual disturbance of the moving blades and shadows, and by noise or vibration impacting the inner ear.

Other candidate risk factors for susceptibility to Wind Turbine Syndrome are age-related changes in the inner ear. Five percent (5%) of otherwise healthy people from age 57 to 91 experience dizziness, and 24% experience tinnitus or ringing. Damage to the ears or hearing from other causes, such as noise exposure, is also a potential risk factor. Inner ear organs are closely linked, by proven neurological connections, to the brain systems which control mood, anxiety, and one’s sense of well-being. Disturbing the inner ear disturbs mood, not because a person is a whiner or doesn’t like turbines, but because of neurology.

Data from a number of studies and individual cases document that in rolling terrain, disturbing symptoms of the Wind Turbine Syndrome occur up to 1.2 miles from the closest turbine. In long Appalachian valleys, with turbines on ridge-tops, disturbing symptoms occur up to 1.5 miles away. In New Zealand, which is more mountainous, disturbing symptoms occur up to 1.9 miles away. In New York State, with its mixed terrain, I recommend a setback of 1.5 miles (8000 ft.) between all industrial wind turbines and people’s homes or schools, hospitals, or similar institutions. This setback should be imposed immediately for turbines not yet built. The legislature might want to set up a panel of clinicians to review the data and medical information I refer to here, but until this happens, and as research continues, a moratorium on all wind turbine construction within 1.5 miles of homes would be appropriate.

To recapitulate, there is in fact a consistent cluster of symptoms, the Wind Turbine Syndrome, which occurs in a significant number of people in the vicinity of industrial wind turbines. There are specific risks factors for this syndrome, and people with these risk factors include a substantial portion of the population. A setback of 1.5 miles from homes, schools, hospitals, and similar institutions will probably be adequate, in most NY State terrain, to protect people from the adverse health effects of industrial wind turbines.

MAC said...

"Can some one please tell what the "Health Concerns" are with the wind turbins?!? Also where you get the information from, ie; website, newspaper, hersay. Thanks"

If you have access to a computer, go to http://www.google.com/ and just start searching for anything related to wind turbines. You'll find tons and tons of info.

Anonymous said...

Dr.Pierpont...Isn't she the "baby doctor" who spent a bunch of time living with the tribes in Alaska or something?Bet she will be a big factor when Potter gets its pants sued off for passing laws that forbid a company from doing business the same as any other has the right to.Lets not forget that we will also be telling Washington that we know more than anyone else.(You can tell this by looking at how prosperous we have all become thanks to our past decisions)

Anonymous said...

Can you disprove her and others?

Anonymous said...

It looks like she has been researching this subject.

Anonymous said...

But can you smear the findings too?

Anonymous said...

Just for the record. There was about 20 Save God's Country people at the forum and about 80 farmers and landowners. There was not time in two hours for everyone to speak up, but the show of property owners was a message in itself. The company will not be the ones sueing the county for excessive set backs, it will be the people of Potter County who have lived here and farmed here for generations. There is already state guidelines to follow and I do not know why Potter County thinks it is so special. All individual Townships can have their own planning boards and set their own rules that supercede the commissioners. And these commissioners will be a one term deal anyway.

Anonymous said...

Again, refer to prior posts, there are no "state guidelines to follow" It's was only a biased MODEL drawn up by the foxes who guard to henhouse. See prior posts.

T.Boone Jr is whispering untruths into your ear.

If the townships are going to make their own rules anyway, why even show up at the meeting, why read this blog?

Shouldn't you be trying to impose this thru your township planning board? Why watse your time at the county level?

I hope you didn't count me because I am not a member of SGC, but I am for preserving adjacent property owners rights and I like others was at the meeting.

You make it sound as if it was only Save Gods Country and the wind salesmen there. Not so.

I witnessed the mob mentality swell into condescension.

Anonymous said...

Any comment on the findings from the above post. Any at all? or should we just avoid it?

The Politics of Coercion said...

Threats of suits, threats of lost money to the County, threats of lost jobs threats of cutting of land for hunters and snowmobilers.

It seems the reasoning has morphed from "my land" to green energy to the politics of coercion.

Tell me there is no harm done to neighbors, tell me where the research is wrong, tell me these people are making up their claims, after reading the above links to the health problems and I will join the wind salesmen.

Where is Bob? said...

Why have I never seen Bob White of AES post his findings/research on this blog?

Anonymous said...

"If these thing are so beign, put your money where your mouth is. Give me a guarantee my health and property values will not be harmed."

I'm sorry but I got a good laught out of this comment, is this a joke or what?

You can tell this is small town people with small town thinking! Give me a list of ANY industry ANYWHERE that has had to do this, please as I would like to know.

And that is the point in this debate. Potter County has just, once again, put the "Do not Enter" sign up for any new industry to view.

Guess our newly elected commissioners have all ready forgotten what they promised...to try to help the economy by bringing new industry to our area. And this would be a start in that direction.

Glad I have more faith in our local government, I hope our townships will do the right thing and follow the state model ordinance as it should be a start, not ignored!

My understanding of the state model ordinance in regard to set backs is 462 feet, the planning commission in all their wisdom all but doubled it to 800 feet and who knows where our brillant "3" came up with 2334, over 5 times the state model amount!! What information was collected and debated to come up with this figure?

If we do not do something "green" in Potter County now when we have the chance to, we have prime farm land that WILL be a target for land fills, necular land fills and waste burning plants. And I am certain all of the above will have a lot more activity going on 24/7 and will disrupt the beauty of Potter County far more!

Anonymous said...

"It seems the reasoning has morphed from "my land" to green energy to the politics of coercion"

Good one! Ha
No more so than "extortion"!

It seems to me the one's that have made large investments in regards to property have been the ones that have given back to our community for many many years. These are the people that have allowed their land to be open to the public and used by visitors to keep them coming back year after year. And paid their property tax's year after year. And now they are "money hungry" and thinking only of themselves, give me a brake. I am not one of them but I CAN look past my nose, I do not have tunnel vision, can you say they same thing?

Anonymous said...

I put my reputation, my liscense and my way of making a living with every piece of work I put out and the statements I include.

I can be sued at the drop of a hat for my work and statements and lose my livelyhood.

I stand behind what I do.

Why can't they?

Anonymous said...

"Again, refer to prior posts, there are no "state guidelines to follow" It's was only a biased MODEL drawn up by the foxes who guard to henhouse. See prior posts."

Again...your point of view of a biased MODEL, we do not all view it this way.

Anonymous said...

If the land owners are concerned about preserving the land from land fills and waste sites, I'm sure the The Nature Conservancy may be able to help them out by preserving the land forever

http://giftplanning.nature.org/GIFTrealestateguide.php

Anonymous said...

The Model says regarding setbacks:

"* (reference to zoning only to be used where the municipality has a zoning ordinance)"

If there is no zoning, the model setbacks do not apply.

If the setbacks do not apply, The Commissioners are within their right to develop any setbacks they choose to protect the adjacent land owners.


Notice these terms in the Model -
"general template"

"adapt to their own particular needs"

"these sample model ordinances are merely models" "municipalities may enact ordinances under their inherent “police” powers to protect public health, safety and welfare"

"Subdivision and land development ordinances..... do provide the municipality with a significant amount of control over such issues as set-backs, roads, layout of facilities etc"



Here is the link to the Model from DEP's website

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:dqSMSHHtv7UJ:www.depweb.state.pa.us/energy/lib/energy/docs/wind_model_ordinance_draft_(12-8-06).doc+pa+wind+guidelines+model&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

This is the introduction
in the model

Model Ordinance for Wind Energy Facilities in PA


The attached sample model ordinances are updated versions, originally created by a work group of the Governor’s Office, DEP, DCNR, PA State Association of Township Supervisors, County Commissioners Association, Wind Energy Associations and Penn Future with the assistance of DCED. They are intended for use as general templates for municipalities to review and adapt to their own particular needs. Please keep in mind that these sample model ordinances are merely models, and should be used only as a guide in developing or amending your own ordinances as they pertain to wind energy facilities. No assurances are made regarding the enforceability of any ordinance. Each municipality should confer with its own solicitor regarding such matters.


Regulations Affecting Wind Energy Facilities in General


The Pennsylvania Municipalities Planning Code (MPC) provides two essential tools for use by municipalities to regulate land use within their borders; zoning ordinances and subdivision & land development ordinances (SDLO). In addition, municipalities may enact ordinances under their inherent “police” powers to protect public health, safety and welfare. All of these ordinances may be used, in one form or another, in guiding the development of wind energy facilities in Pennsylvania’s municipalities.


Zoning is purely optional on the part of municipalities, but is the sole means by which a municipality may establish specific areas of the municipality in which wind energy facilities may be permitted or prohibited. Subdivision and land development ordinances, while not appropriate for identifying the areas of the municipality in which such uses will or will not be permitted, do provide the municipality with a significant amount of control over such issues as set-backs, roads, layout of facilities etc.

This is the setback section

8. SETBACKS

A. Occupied Buildings

1. Wind Turbines shall be set back from the nearest Occupied Building a distance of not less than the maximum setback requirements for that zoning classification where the turbine is located * or 1.1 times the Turbine Height, whichever is greater. These setback distances shall be measured from the center of the Wind Turbine base to the nearest point on the foundation of the Occupied Building.

* (reference to zoning only to be used where the municipality has a zoning ordinance)

2. Wind Turbines shall be set back from the nearest Occupied Building located on a Non-participating Landowner's property a distance of not less than five (5) times the Hub Height, as measured from the center of the Wind Turbine base to the nearest point on the foundation of the Occupied Building.


B. Property lines: All Wind Turbines shall be set back from the nearest property line a distance of not less than the maximum setback requirements for that zoning classification where the turbine is located or * 1.1 times the Turbine Height, whichever is greater. The setback distance shall be measured to the center of the Wind Turbine base.

* (reference to zoning only to be used where the municipality has a zoning ordinance)

C. Public Roads: All Wind Turbines shall be set back from the nearest public road a distance of not less than 1.1 times the Turbine Height, as measured from the right-of-way line of the nearest public road to the center of the Wind Turbine base.

Biased Bob said...

It's like 2 foxes and a chicken voting on whats for dinner.

Pro wind groups, wind developers, energy companies who have to supply energy when they don't blow and goverment....Yea I trust them to be unbiased.....

Here is who was there -

The model ordinance represents the collaborative efforts of state and local governments with the private sector. Participants included PSATS, the County Commissioners Association of Pennsylvania, the Pennsylvania League of Cities and Municipalities, environmental advocacy group PennFuture, and wind energy development companies Community Energy, FPL Energy, PPM Energy and Gamesa Corp.


“We at Gamesa Energy are extremely pleased with the model ordinance for wind energy facilities in Pennsylvania,......said Brian Lammers, director of development in the Atlantic region for Gamesa Energy USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias

Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, especially when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective.

Anonymous said...

I think the idea of a buyout account is a good idea for all.

Many professionals guarantee their work they put out, many companies guarantee what they sell will do what they say it will, many give you what they say they will.

If I order a ham sandwich at Fezz's, they will give me a ham sandwich, nothing less, nothing more.

They don't give me a BLT instead and say I know the menu said ham sandwich but it came out as a BLT instead. Sorry, I can't take responsibility for whats on my menu and what you think you will get.

So the idea of backing up what you say and do with responsibility and liability is nothing new to reputable people.

Anonymous said...

1. What has more health issues:
A. Coal Burning Plants

B. Nuclear Power Plants

C. Wind Turbines Farms

2. What makes more noise:
A. Coal Burning Plants

B. Nuclear Power Plants

C. Wind Turbines Farms

3. What releases more pollution:
A. Coal Burning Plants

B. Nuclear Power Plants

C. Wind Turbines Farms

4. What would be more of an eyesore in Potter County:
A. Coal Burning Plants

B. Nuclear Power Plants

C. Wind Turbines Farms

5. What would light up the sky more at Cherry Springs:
A. Coal Burning Plants

B. Nuclear Power Plants

C. Wind Turbines Farms

6. What would harm the water:
A. Coal Burning Plants

B. Nuclear Power Plants

C. Wind Turbines Farms

7. Who is buying off the Commisioners:
A. Coal Burning Plants

B. Nuclear Power Plants

C. Wind Turbines Farms

Follow the money trail.

Anonymous said...

What produces the poorest electric:
1. Wind turbines

What is the only proposed electric plant in Potter County:
1. Wind turbines

What has set friend against friend in Potter County:
1. Wind turbines.

What will pay no taxes if let into Potter County:
1. Wind turbines

What will supply limited poor paying Jobs in Potter county:
1. Wind Turbines

What has brought out the worst in human nature (greed):
1. Wind Turbines

What will destroy the beautiful area we live in:
1. Wind Turbines

What will cause health issues in residents if to close to homes:
1. Wind turbines

What will bring no benifit to Potter County:
1. Wind Turbines

Summary: There is no reason for Wind Turbines in Potter County.
THERE IS JUST NO REASON!!

Anonymous said...

"If I order a ham sandwich at Fezz's, they will give me a ham sandwich, nothing less, nothing more."

Ya this is what I was talking about, ha. Small town, small minds once again.

MAC said...

Comment 1 "If these thing are so beign, put your money where your mouth is. Give me a guarantee my health and property values will not be harmed."

Comment 2 "I'm sorry but I got a good laught out of this comment, is this a joke or what? You can tell this is small town people with small town thinking! Give me a list of ANY industry ANYWHERE that has had to do this, please as I would like to know."

Wind turbines are unique and therefore should be held to unique standards. We're not talking about one fixed location for a single industrial plant. We're talking about hundreds of individual turbines, the placement of which have the potential for hurting people. I am concerned about the loss of the natural beauty of our ridge tops, but my greatest concern is the noise impact if turbines are allowed to be built too close to homes. Hurting people is so totally avoidable. The potential for harm can be eliminated if turbines are put well away from anyone - at least one mile. If political pressures result in turbines going up too closer and people can not tolerate the noise, then they should be given an option to be bought-out by the power company. Apparently, that is happening in other parts of the country. If noise wasn't a real and serious problem, power companies would be being buying people out of homes because they can not be sold.

To those who think wind turbine noise is not a serious problem, read this:
Wind Farm Noise and Regulations in the Eastern United States
Second International Meeting on Wind Turbine Noise
http://www.wind-watch.org/documents/wind-farm-noise-and-regulations-in-the-eastern-united-states/

To those who think that wind power developers are motivated by a desire to help "green up America" and help rural economies, read this:
Misplaced State Government Faith in “Wind Energy”
http://johnrsweet.com/Personal/Wind/PDF/Schleede-KansasWind-20050301.pdf

Anonymous said...

"If I order a ham sandwich at Fezz's, they will give me a ham sandwich, nothing less, nothing more."

Sophocles said -

"Ya this is what I was talking about, ha. Small town, small minds once again".

It was a simple analogy, I guess it went over your head?

Anonymous said...

It seems that that the "Anti's" are saying that the people who have leased their land and the turbine people are more worried about themselves than protecting their neighbors.Some one is blowing smoke!Lets see if we can discover who it is.
Dr.Nina Pierpont it seems gave testimony to the N.Y. State Legislature Energy Committee.
Although we have heard all about her opinions,who else was heard and what was their opinion?
What were the overall findings of this committee?
I read things like,"This is so new that no real study of health effects has been done."
Haven't wind farms been around for a good long while now?The health issue seems to be the thing that has not been around long.(If you want to keep something out and you can't come up with a good reason,use the health and safety issue.)
"The turbine company's need to prove that there are no health effects"
You seem to be the ones that used the health card.One would think it would be up to you to prove it.
"The companys should set up a fund to cover anyone who has adverse effects from the turbines"
To date nobody has been able to prove that any illness can be be proven to be directly related to the turbines.Until such a time,it would be suicide for a company to do such a thing!Everyone with an illness of any kind would be bringing suit against the company and claiming it was caused by the turbines.If there is a health issue,and it can be proven in court,you get the money anyway.Oh,but this is not about money!
When Mr.White from the company was asked if he would guarantee that no ill effects would be suffered,he didn't blow smoke,he said no.
Let's ask the same question from "Save Gods Country".Will you start a fund and guarantee that you will pay this company's lost revenues if no illness can be proven to be caused by the turbines in court?(Bet it won"t happen)
Someone is "Blowing Smoke" and someone could care less about their neighbors rights.

Anonymous said...

You assessment about the number of people at the Commissioner's Forum
pro/con wind is quite skewed.

It was much more balanced against. Sadly the people who do not want them don't know how to stand up for themselves because they fear harrassment as I have been
harrassed. So...get your facts
correct and stop bullying people
into believing this project
is favored by the majority. It IS NOT FAVORED BY THE MAJORITY.
It offers nothing whatsoever to those who don't receive a monthly stipend. NO GOOD, NO dollar for dollar value...only harm.

Tired of all the liars and manipulators of fact. Gotta
wonder why at the Commissioners Forum for Potter County we had
lumber men and Bob White speaking.
Do they live in Potter County?
Do they have our best interests at heart? Didn't they buy these leases
from the late great Enron???
Sorry situation.

Anonymous said...

"What produces the poorest electric:"
650 million to REBUILD the Clearfield Coal Electric Plant,,,,,and 3 million for 1 Turbine!!! You do the Math!!!!

"What is the only proposed electric plant in Potter County:
1. Wind turbines"
That is right!!!

"What has set friend against friend in Potter County:"
Maybe they weren't your friends to begin with!!!!! I still have LOTS of friends on both sides!!!!

"What will pay no taxes if let into Potter County:"
1. Wind turbines
Are you sure 'bout that????

"What will supply limited poor paying Jobs in Potter county:"
What is "limited poor paying Jobs"???

"What has brought out the worst in human nature (greed):"
It's ANTI,,,,NIMBY,,,,and people that could not pass a polygraph test!!!!

"What will destroy the beautiful area we live in:"
The beauty will be only seen!!!! The push for Private Land Posting has already begun thanks to the Commisioners!!!!

"What will cause health issues in residents if to close to homes:"
The list is TOO LONG TA POST ALL!!!!!

"What will bring no benifit to Potter County:"
Our current Commisioners!!!!!

ENIS,,,A Native Potter Countyian

Anonymous said...

most of the people that do not want wind farms here moved here from out of the area and built a house in an agricultural area. I would advise you all to start building industrial hog farms no more then 4 feet from your property line or maybe a nice milk house to fire up at 4 am then you will understand just how hard these farmers work.

Just because I don't like pink and think it makes me violently ill dose not give me the right to tell the person up the road or next door the can not have a pink house. I advise you to get an honest accurate appraisal of your property now just so you can not blame your perceived decline in property value to the windmill up the street, you will be surprised just how bad the housing market is here just now.

So now to the age old question which came first fire or the crazy dude with the sign saying the world will end in fire standing on the corner? (so was my neighbor crazy already or driven crazy by my windmill?)

So who did our commissioners nominate to do their research for them none other then our very own 3 time failure, we elected you all, and I for one expect you all to go spend one night in one of these house's of one of these people that claim they have been so harmed, or damaged, you owe us all at least that much and for fairness sake the home owner should not meet with you at all as to have no undo influence. This issue is to important to be left in the hands of Paul Himel alone. Suspicion of health issues is an inadequate bases to deny an property owner his rights, you need proof.

Anonymous said...

Enis, you misread the post about the electric plant in Clearfield county. Here is the actual news release. Notice that it is not a rebuild, it is a new plant.

KARTHAUS, Pa. -- State Rep. Camille "Bud" George announced funding last week for a waste-coal plant near Karthaus, Clearfield County.

Bonds for the plant total $600 million, with the total cost of the power plant at $550 million.

The power plant will use waste-coal, which currently pollutes waterways across our region.

George said it will also reduce emissions by 95 percent compared to traditional coal-burning plants.

Preliminary work has already started on the access roads that will lead to the power plant.

Construction is expected to take four years and will create up to 1,000 jobs.

After construction, 60 people could be employed at the power plant.
----------
Yes, a wind turbine is 3 million dollars to build, but acording to Bob White of AES, they have a budget of 350 milion for the 79 turbine project in Ulysses Township. That is 100 million more than the cost of the turbines themselves. This electric will not be consistent and will be eradic and will cause our electric bills to go up, because the power is so expensive to produce. They will also need to be backed up by a plant like this one in KarthausOr we will be in the dark 80% of the time. Turbines are only 20% efficent. It is important to note that PA. already exports 40% of the power it produces.
Much has been posted claiming that there is no benifit for these turbines in Potter County. Please try to post one good thing about them. Remember, "Money for me is not a good reason".

Anonymous said...

Dr.Nina Pierpont is a physician-scientist and researcher.



French Academy of Medicine warns of wind turbine noise


Ventdubocage has posted a report from the National Academy of Medicine in France,

"Le retentissement du fonctionnement des éoliennes sur la santé de l'homme" ("Repercussions of wind turbine operations on human health").

Following is a translation of a notice of the report by Dr. Chantal Gueniot in "Panorama du Médecin, 20 March 2006:
March 20, 2006 by Dr. Chantal Gueniot in Panorama du Médecin
Wind turbines: The Academy cautious

The harmful effects of sound related to wind turbines are insufficiently assessed, warns the Academy.

Wind turbines, which are multiplying throughout the French countryside, will have to be considered as industrial installations and to comply, by that fact, to specific regulations that take account of the harmful effects of sound as particularly produced by these structures, determined a working group assembled by the National Academy of Medicine and presided over by professor Claude-Henri Chouard (Paris).

People living near the towers, the heights of which vary from 10 to 100 meters, sometimes complain of functional disturbances similar to those observed in syndromes of chronic sound trauma. Studies conducted in the neighborhoods of airports have clearly demonstrated that chronic invasive sound involves neurobiological reactions associated with an increased frequency of hypertension and cardiovascular illness. Unfortunately, no such study has been done near wind turbines. But, the sounds emitted by the blades being low frequency, which therefore travel easily and vary according to the wind, they constitute a permanent risk for the people exposed to them.

Since 2 July 2003, the law has required a construction permit for wind turbines over 12 meters, including an impact study if their [combined] power is over 2.5 megawatts. An investigation conducted by the Ddass [Direction Départementale des Affaires Sanitaires et Sociales] in Saint-Crépin (Charent-Maritime) revealed that sound levels 1 km from an installation occasionally exceeded allowable limits. While waiting for precise studies of the risks connected with these installations, the Academy recommend halting wind turbine construction closer than 1.5 km from residences.


http://ventdubocage.net/documentsoriginaux/sante/eoliennes.pdf



This is a 137 page document below. Get back to us when you read this and see if you can do away with AES's talking points. It's like talking to a libral, sometimes...


http://www.windturbinenoisehealthhumanrights.com/wtnhhr_june2007.pdf

Anonymous said...

enis glad to have you back and fighting for the cause? but I think you need a refill on your meds or increase the dosage.

Anonymous said...

Please Note that this nasty post(copied below) is from a pro-wind person.
Sad isn't it. He completley misses the points being made. Wind turbines should not be close to homes. That is the entire issue.

Part of the nasty post is:
"most of the people that do not want wind farms here moved here from out of the area and built a house in an agricultural area. I would advise you all to start building industrial hog farms no more then 4 feet from your property line or maybe a nice milk house to fire up at 4 am then you will understand just how hard these farmers work."
------
Also, insulting our elected officials should be left to the Leader Enterprise. That must be why they print a paper, to through their negitive slant on everything.

Anonymous said...

Industrial wind turbines, infrasound and vibro-acoustic disease (VAD)

Documented in a press release dated May 31, 2007 from the Vibro-Acoustic Disease (VAD) research group in Portugal, people living in the shadow of industrial wind turbines have moved a step closer to understanding the nature of the Wind Turbine Syndrome many of them experience and complain about. Professor Mariana Alves-Pereira (an acoustical engineer) and Dr. Nuno Castelo Branco (a surgical pathologist) recently took numerous noise/vibration measurements within a Portuguese home surrounded by four (4) industrial wind turbines. The closest turbine is nearly 1000 feet (300 meters), from the affected home. The turbines have been operating since November 2006. The scientific report on this research will be formally presented at Internoise 2007, to be held on 28-31 August in Istanbul, Turkey.
May 31, 2007 by Mariana Alves-Pereira, PhD
Excessive exposure to infrasound and low frequency noise (ILFN, defined as all acoustical phenomena occurring at or below the frequency bands of 500 Hz) can cause vibroacoustic disease (VAD).[1]
Research into VAD has been ongoing since 1980, conducted by a multidisciplinary team of scientists and led by pathologist Nuno Castelo Branco, MD.

In March 2007, and for the first time, the Portuguese National Center for Occupational Diseases attributed 100% professional disability to a 40-year-old flight attendant who had been diagnosed with VAD since 2001. Two other VAD patients have also been attributed a similar disability status.

Initially, only ILFN-rich occupational environments were investigated. However, over the past several years, many individuals and their families have approached our team because of the ILFN contaminant in their homes. The sources of residential ILFN vary from industrial complexes, to large volume highways, to public transportation systems, etc.

In a case study published in Proceedings of Internoise 2004 (a annual scientific meeting dedicated to all aspects of acoustics), one of the first documented cases of environmental VAD was reported in a family of four, exposed to the ILFN produced by a port grain terminal.[2]

Over the past three years, several families have contacted this team complaining of noise caused by the proximity of industrial wind turbines (windmills). However, only within this past month has this team obtained detailed acoustical measurements within a home surrounded by 4, recently installed industrial windmills.

This acoustical data was essential in order to compare in-home, windmill-produced acoustical environments with the residential, ILFN-rich environments that are known to be conducive to VAD.

The levels of ILFN inside the windmill-surrounded home are larger than those obtained in the home contaminated by the port grain terminal.

The scientific report will be formally presented at Internoise 2007, to be held on 28-31 August in Istanbul, Turkey.[3]

These results irrefutably demonstrate that windmills in the proximity of residential areas produce acoustical environments that can lead to the development of VAD in the nearby home-dwellers.

In order to protect Public Health, ILFN-producing devices must not be placed in locations that will contaminate residential areas with this agent of disease.



Mariana Alves-Pereira, PhD
School of Health Sciences (ERISA), Lusofona University Portugal Department of Environmental Sciences & Engineering, New University of Lisbon Portugal

Nuno Castelo Branco, MD
Surgical Pathologist President, Scientific Board Center for Human Performance (CPH)

The Center for Human Performance is a civilian, non-profit organization dedicated to research in vibro-acoustic disease. CPH was founded in 1992 has been the organization which coordinates all the different teams that work on vibro-acoustic disease research, and that include (in Portugal) the cardiology and pulmonary departments of the Cascais Hospital, the neurophysiology department of the National Institute of Cancer, the department of human genetics of the National Institute of Public Health, the department of speech pathology of the School of Health Sciences of the Polytechnical Institute of Setúbal, among several others over the past 25 years.

Contact: Professor Alves-Pereira, vibroacoustic.disease@gmail.com

matt said...

Look these people are asking you a fair question. Please provide me (us) with a reliable credible source that clearly and concisely states wind mills or wind turbines cause health problems. You are producing articles from the national inquirer that JFK was killed by aliens. We are looking for the NJM, AMA or even the HMR. Don't point me to some other zealots site and expect me to take this as fact.

Anonymous said...

Excellent idea about staying in a home of two.

I bet these people would give up a night or two in their house & I'll pay for the gas.

They are either insane & making it up or it is for real.

You be the judge

Everyone should read these letters

http://www.savewesternny.org/docs/letters.html


Rodger A. Hutzell Jr.
327 Ridge Road
Meyersdale, PA
15552

Karen Ervin, Meyersdale, PA

Robert Larivee,
Professor of Chemistry, Meyersdale, PA

Pastor Kathleen Danley, Fenner NY

Pam Foringer Town of Fenner NY

Paula Stahl of St. George, West Virginia

Cindy Leviker McEachern Watertown

http://www.savewesternny.org/docs/letters.html

Anonymous said...

It's pretty much common knowledge that Donalds relatives have wind leases. But in fairness to Donald, he has no interest in them.

It just took a him a while to print it in his paper for some reason.

Anonymous said...

Didn't Donald say in the paper that Mike Mulcahey contacted him about the property?

Anonymous said...

Got anything in this country?I tend to shy away from anything the French have to say.

Anonymous said...

The turbines don't make noise in France? How convenient.

MAC said...

Reports that call for a setback of 1-mile or more due to turbine noise. There's not question that noise is a problem. It's matter of determining how far to place away from people to protect us from harm.

French Academy of Medicine warns of wind turbine noise
Recommends 1km (.9-mile) setback
http://kirbymtn.blogspot.com/2006/03/french-academy-of-medicine-warns-of.html

National Wind Watch
Recommends 1 mile setback
http://www.wind-watch.org/press-070402.php

U.K. Noise Association
Recommends 1-mile setback
U.K. Noise Association: 1 mile setback needed for wind turbines
http://kirbymtn.blogspot.com/2006/08/uk-noise-association-1-mile-setback.html
UK Noise Association – Wind Farms are Causing Noise Problems
http://www.windaction.org/news/4230

Deal reached in wind turbine dispute
Fayette County – 6000 foot setback
http://www.windaction.org/news/16447
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/fayette/s_573705.html

Noise Radiation from Wind Turbines Installed New Homes: Effects o Health
Recommends 2km (1.2 mile) setback
http://www.windturbinenoisehealthhumanrights.com/wtnhhr_june2007.pdf

Location, Location, Location. An investigation into wind farms and noise by the Noise Association
Recommends 1 to 1.5 mile setback
http://www.windaction.org/documents/4281

Are wind farm turbines making people sick? Some say yes.
Recommends 1.5 mile setback
http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2008/04/17/news/doc4807500d59725857996033.txt

Dr. Nina Pierport
Recommends 1.5 mile setback, more for mountainous geography
Health Effects of Wind Turbine Noise
http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/?p=76
Noisy Wind and Hot Air
http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/?p=69
Wind Turbine Syndrome – testimony before the New York State Legislature Energy Committee
http://www.savewesternny.org/docs/pierpont_testimony.html
except from rebuttal to Noble Environmental’s draft Environmental Impact Statement regarding noise, shadow flicker, and health
http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/?p=100

Wind Turbines, Noise and Health
Recommends 1.5 mile setback
http://www.windturbinenoisehealthhumanrights.com/wtnoise_health_2007_a_barry.pdf

Riverside County, California
Recommends 2-mile setback
http://www.rcip.org/documents/general_plan/gen_plan/03_d_16.pdf

Microseismic and Infrasound Monitoring of Low Frequency Noise and Vibrations from Windfarms
Recommends 10km (6.2-mile) setback
http://www.esci.keele.ac.uk/geophysics/dunlaw/Final_Report.pdf

Anonymous said...

If you want your TURBINES..
just follow recommended setbacks
and 'shut up'. Why not a deep
urge to protect the health and safety of your neighbors and
even your own families?? It's
amazing that your greed is so overwhelming that the possibility
that your families and grandchildren MIGHT suffer has
been forgotten. AND you're selling out for a pittance. None
of you need the remuneration..
so it must be the sheer avarice.
You lay down with dogs and get up with flees. In this case what
do you get up with? Self loathing?

Of course, most of you may leave
your land and insufficient setbacks and leave those of us
with worthless homes to suffer.
God's County has been permanently tarnished. AES should put at least double the price of our homes (relocation and inconvenience costs) in escrow.
Possibly they should put more, because many if they need to move, will also have to give up their livelihood. Why doesn't someone start to take their neighbor's
side seriously...When those of you
who failed to disclose get your comeuppance..possibly you'll wish
you'd been more honest.
This project has been on the table for at least 8 or 9 years..so MOST of you are liars and deceivers.
What respect do you warrant.
Green & clean no grim and dirty.

Anonymous said...

Wind turbines create concerns for medical copters
categories: Wisconsin
link: http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2008/08/15/wind-turbines-create-concerns-for-medical-copters/
Flight for Life and Theda Star are telling their pilots not to land in a wind farm if a number of dangerous conditions exist. That means heavy turbulance or if there’s too many high objects. Instead the helicopters would land nearby and wait for an ambulance.

It’s a plan, not everyone is thrilled about.

On a stretch of land, just southwest of Fond du Lac, Curt Kindschuh lives near a windmill farm. It’s an area where Flight for Life and Theda Star say landing could be extremely tough, and that’s why pilots are being told to avoid it, even if there’s an emergency.

Kindschuh says, “I understand where Flight for Life is coming from. Their decision makes sense, but what about the health and safety of the people who reside in the project areas, and that of those people driving through as well? I have some real concerns.”

The windmills are 400 feet high and many sit in large clusters.

If there is an accident, the only option is to transport a patient by ambulance to a safe spot where the helicopter could land.

Claire Rayford with Flight for Life, says, “the pilots would make a judgement at the time. If the wind turbines are too close together, that it would not be safe for us to land right there, we would land in an area that’s safe right on the perimeter.”

Still some say, it would add minutes to the response time.

Kindschuh says, “at some point, it’s probably going to happen. Where somebody will require the services of Flight for Life. They won’t be able to fly in and land, as they should be able to do, and hopefully, somebody is not going to [lose] their life, as a result.”

By Jason Zimmerman

WBAY-TV

14 August 2008

Anonymous said...

The only thing that has permanently tarnished Potter County is the ignorance of some it's citizens. I stayed here "Post-Adelphia" because of what I thought was an outstanding community spirit and close knit bond that would hold the County together as we all came together and persevered through hard times.

Fact is, I was wrong.

Wrong about my neighbors and over estimated what I thought was a group of fair and forward think individuals committed to a better future. I couldnt have been more wrong. If this is the level of thinking in this community and county then count me out. After 25 years my house is on the market and I look forward to finding friends and neighbors that arent so ignorant and shallow. So long and best of luck in the dark ages!

MAC said...

"The turbines don't make noise in France? How convenient."

French Academy of Medicine warns of wind turbine noise
Recommends 1km (.9-mile) setback
http://kirbymtn.blogspot.com/2006/03/french-academy-of-medicine-warns-of.html

MAC said...

It is amazing how we all, so much of the time, take for granted the simple act of flipping a switch to turn on a light, plugging in an appliance to give it electrical power to function. How blessed we all are to live in a country where electrical power reaches into even its most remote corners. There is no question that effort must be invested in finding renewable sources, but the more I read, the more I am convinced that wind power at the industrial level is not the answer – it does much more harm than good.

Misplaced State Government Faith in “Wind Energy”
An Analysis and Report by Glenn R. Schleede
http://johnrsweet.com/Personal/Wind/PDF/Schleede-KansasWind-20050301.pdf

Mr. Scheele’s report, more than any I’ve come across, takes a look at the big picture of wind power and explains why it does not standup to the claims made by its proponents. While the analysis is specific to the state of Kansas, the information contained applies to all states currently involved with wind power development. If you have not yet come across this document, I strongly encourage you to read it. It is information like this that supports the need for a restrictive ordinance to minimize the negative impact on Potter County’s residents and our already fragile economy.

Anonymous said...

"After 25 years my house is on the market and I look forward to finding friends and neighbors that arent so ignorant and shallow. So long and best of luck in the dark ages!"

ENIS,,,A Native Potter Countyian

Anonymous said...

Dr. Nina Pierpont is much more
than a pediatrician. She is a scholar and a scientist as well.
Why not check out her CV aka resume.

http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/pierpont-complete-cv-5-10-081.pdf

Anonymous said...

I still haven't gotten my answer,but Nina Pierpont keeps comming out as the ultimate expert on wind turbines....One more time....Who else gave testimony to an "Honest to God", N.Y. State energy committee?What were those opinions?What were the final findings of this committee?...I don't know yet, but could it be that you have taken one opinion out of context and made it out to be the only opinion that counts?...Enough about France and Portugal.Last time I checked N.Y. wasn't located in these countries.

Anonymous said...

Read the posts. Article after article, post after post, country after country, state after state are all stating the problems with wind turbines, and all some people can say is; not enough studies, all misinformation, thats not proof, it's my land I can do what I want, screw you, you're anti everything, move if you don't like it here, i'll put in a pig farm or a waste dump.
The fact is there are many reasons wind turbines should not be in Potter County, and many have been posted, but the pro-wind people (lessors) never yet have posted one good reason for wind turbines. There is just no good reason to spoil Potter County with these soon to be outdated and extinct monsters.

Anonymous said...

Land sakes, I've never heard so much baloney since...

Shoot I don't know when...

Boy, you would think that folks that live here in Potter County..
"God's Country" would have a bit more plain old common sense!

Where is your love for the land
Mr. Enis? My gosh man, did a Cherry from one of those Cherry
Trees hit you on the head and maybe that's why you don't like Cherry Springs?

And for the rest of you that are bellyaching about those that are against the AES Windfarm, I have to ask if you've done some research yourselves?

Apparently not.

Please don't get me wrong, I not against folks trying to make a living, but I have problems when it's a "Select few" and not everyone.

With neighbors like these, who needs enemies, huh?

Fact is that everyone is hurting except a few...

Wall Street almost imploded today...and it isn't over yet!

Sadly, I believe that we may be headed straight into a

DEPRESSION...

Seems to me that the roaring twenties were just like what we have been going through and now we are close to "1929" all over again.
With George W. Bush reprising the role of Herbert Hoover.

Again, to those who are bellyaching and dissing those who are not too happy with the AES Windfarm I say ...

Look in the mirror...if you voted for the new Herbert Hoover it may be time to convict yourselves for 5minutes and then we can forgive you.

No jobs in Potter? Maybe a lot of folks have seen their jobs go overseas...

Maybe it's time to really ask your Congressman what Bacon he has brought back to Potter.

I don't see much bacon...

I see fellow Pennsylvanians and fellow Americans hurting.

I say, don't bury Cherry Springs State Park by building a Wind Farm that is about as good as a "Bridge built to nowhere"...

In fact it's much worse...

That bridge in Alaska did employ quite a few folks...

The Wind Farm won't employ many.

I think it's time to ask our elected officials what they've been doing lately...

And give them a pink slip in November!

Anonymous said...

"Enis, you misread the post about the electric plant in Clearfield county. Here is the actual news release. Notice that it is not a rebuild, it is a new plant."

Nope,,,,I didn't "misread" it!!! In fact I didn't read the post!!! What I read was an article back in early spring from an area newspaper!!!! If I remember correctly it went like this:
Construction has been delayed on the Clearfield County Coal Waste Power Plant until Spring of 2009!!! With the delay the cost could rise to 650 million for the completion of the Plant!!!!
I did make a mistake on the rebuild part,,,,,and when I make a mistake,,,the buck stops here!!! I was thinking of 2 different jobs that are going on in that area,,,,,,,the Power Plant and the rebuilding of Rt. 879!!! Sorry for the mistake!!!


"Please try to post one good thing about them. Remember, "Money for me is not a good reason"."

Clean Energy!!!!
No Franklins will lead to my door,,,,,but No Trespassing signs have!!!!

ENIS,,,,a Native Potter Countyian

Anonymous said...

"enis glad to have you back and fighting for the cause? but I think you need a refill on your meds or increase the dosage."

Why don't you quit takin nibbles of this sandwich!!! Take a bigger bite!!!!

ENIS,,,,a Native Potter Countyian

Anonymous said...

"After 25 years my house is on the market and I look forward to finding friends and neighbors that arent so ignorant and shallow. So long and best of luck in the dark ages!"

"ENIS,,,A Native Potter Countyian"

Wasn't my post!!!! But I see I'm makin some noise,,,,and it's above the 5dB!!!!

ENIS,,,,,a Native Potter Countyian

Anonymous said...

"Where is your love for the land
Mr. Enis? My gosh man, did a Cherry from one of those Cherry
Trees hit you on the head and maybe that's why you don't like Cherry Springs?"

Loved the place,,,,,,,and still do!!! Never once did I say I hated it!!!! The questions I have is,,,,,why did they change my beloved Cherry Springs???? Better for who???? The Plane rides,,,,,,lookin over Potter County,,,,,at all the Cherry Trees,,,,not hittin me!!!!!

ENIS,,,,a Native Potter Countyian

Anonymous said...

AES can aquire an insurance policy to protect them from the possible potential buy out of the neighbors if the setbacks are not far enough and impact neighbors.

It will be much less than putting full value of a property plus costs into an escrow account.

However, if an insurance company will not write the insurance, that may say something in and of itself.

Anonymous said...

Don't get your dander up ,Jim, I mean Enis. You have to be born in Potter county to be a native.

Anonymous said...

There is no factual basis that these windmills will be abandon you're just fear mongering.
I keep hearing wait 5 years they will be better, and I am sure they will be but we need to get started building them now. Clean electrical power is not a bridge to no where people are currently running completely capable electric cars on existing battery technology and they have been doing so since the 40's.

1 Clean Green power.
2 Some jobs (not a lot, but far more the save god's county will create)
3 some pride 'we are doing our part."
4 9/11
5 eco tourism
6 a better less polluted world for my children

http://www.awea.org/faq/wwt_environment.html#Will%20wind%20energy%20hurt%20tourism%20in%20my%20area

check some of these things save god's country has tossed around against the facts. The women that coined the term wind turbine sickness Cried the day they erected the first windmill in front of her house, dose it not seem possible she has made herself sick? These are going to be mighty close to my house and I still say go for it, and I really don't need the work. I don't expect to change your mind I only ask that you do your own unbiased research not just here but in anything. I have no interest in having windmill after windmill for as far as the eye can see, but save god's country's opinion that no windmill should be built in Potter County at all goes to far. One mile set backs go to far and are no where near industry standard. People will tell you anything even toss a link in and expect you to believe it. Go to google type in "the health effects of windmills" you will see lots of links but not a one to AMA NJM, this should tell you something, now try cancer just to see what types of sites you will see for real health issues.

No one hates Cherry Springs and again DCNR has ruled no impact from wind mills on Cherry Springs. What we all don't agree with is the fear mongering related to Cherry Springs.

Anonymous said...

O.K. I rest my case.I now know who is "Blowing Smoke"instead of telling the facts.I did not get a straight answer to my question because there was no way to spin it.Instead I got alot more of the same.Rhetoric-Half truths -and Utter Nonsense.
The things you try to pass off as fact are nothing more than the opinions of a few groups from a few places with unproven views.
When you can quote and reference mainstream organizations,with mainstream credentials,and unquestionable scientific facts;*then and only then* can you infringe on the constitutionally given rights of others to do what they want with what they own in a manner they see fit.
Oh...and France can "piss off!" Welcome to Gods Country U.S.A.

Anonymous said...

Poster said:
"One mile set backs go to far and are no where near industry standard."

Facts read:
There are NO INDUSTRY STANDARDS, There are NO STATE REGULATIONS.
These are all made up terms by the wind industry. The misinformation the pro-wind people (Lessors) keep spreading. The model orddinance was a TEMPLET. The word model gives it away. I hope you read your less contract better than you read the MODEL ordinance. If it pays on electic generated you will be as disapointed in your check as we will be with your turbines.

Anonymous said...

Wasn't my post!!!! But I see I'm makin some noise,,,,and it's above the 5dB!!!!

ENIS,,,,,a Native Potter Countyian

But you exceed the setbacks since yer in Chester County

Anonymous said...

If your neighbor tells you he has a headache, do you ask for a board certified neurologist's report?

If you kid hits a baseball through you neighbor's window, do you call a structural engineer to detect the angle of entry to see if it really was a ball from your property?

Of your butcher says he's out of pig's feet, do you demand an internal review of his stock by an outside auditor to prove his statement.

There is no annointed "AMA study" as you requested. If there is no study, then how do we decide who is more accurate? Or do you just walk away and say I told you so. Because it fits what you want to accomplish.

How do you factor in the hundreds of accounts of peoples pain into your reasoning. Do you blow them off as insane, crazy or just wanting attention. All of them?

Not one of you has ever said, yes I have read them and I think this about them. Not one has comented on the noise diary's posted here from neighbors.

There has to be an"official study" from a specific organization, in a specific country to show you there are global problems.

Yet, We are to take Bob Whites & AES's word for what is true and accurate?

A reasonable person would read all data, good, bad, weak and strong and only then come to a conclusion.

Not one has commented on the TUG Hill Videos, or any of the other interviewes with the people who have lived with them.

Not one has produced even one person who lives adjacent to a wind farm and experiences the noise, vibration and says they don't mind it.

Why not, it would seem easy enough.

It almost seems like coached wind salesman talking points put forth.

At least I give T Boone Pickens credit for being an honest man when he says it's about the money first.

He knows the impact they have and he wont have them on his ranch.

He knows it's a scheme that only works because of the tax credits.

Rather than repeat the talking points, be intellectually honest enough to say

yea I read the letters and saw the videos and I think they are all crazy,
I know they don't produce alot of long lasting good paying jobs, but thats life.
I know they make noise over the fence to Joe Neighbor, but I don't think it's a big deal
I know they are inefficient, but I'm ok with that because I'm doing my part.
Ruin the springs? no problem, I drink bottled water anyway.

If your waiting for an "AMA" or "AES: study dont hold your breath.

But at least base your own opinion specific to the data which is presented here after reading opposing view points.

"These are going to be mighty close to my house and I still say go for it"

How close are they going to be?

Instead of "going for it" I would call a huddle & spend every waking moment reading from whatever source I could find and all I could about what people who are in the same proximity to turbines as I will be are saying. I would visit or call them and talk to them for hours.

But don't look for noise directly under a turbine.

godspeed

The American Wind Energy Association, AWEA is telling their members to contact their congresmen to renew the tax credit

We must call Congress and tell them not to extend the renewable energy production tax credit (PTC), which is set to expire at the end of 2008

Production Tax Credit (PTC) Extension

Description: Under present law, an income tax credit is allowed for the production of electricity from qualified wind energy facilities and other sources of renewable energy. The current value of the credit is 2 cents/kilowatt-hour of electricity produced. The credit was created under the Energy Policy Act of 1992 (at the value of 2.1 cents/kilowatt-hour, which has since been adjusted annually for inflation) and applies to electricity produced by a qualified wind facility placed in service after December 31, 1992, and before January 1, 2009.

Anonymous said...

"The misinformation the pro-wind people (Lessors) keep spreading."

I am for clean green wind energy and I did not sign a lease and I am not misinformed!

I keep reading that the pro wind people have not educated themselves, YES we have! I keep reading that the pro wind people are only the few that have signed leases, NO I have not!

Each time we post that we spent days experiencing the wind turbine farms, IT IS NEVER ENOUGH. Why? Because lets see...we are told we did not spend the night in a straingers house, we stood under them, we stood too close to them, we did not stay for weeks or months, Crimey give me a brake!

"Ruin the springs? no problem, I drink bottled water anyway."

You must have heard K. L. make the same statement I did at the meeting. Ya know what, he had a good point but you know what, IT CAN BE HANDLED properly so this DOES NOT HAPPEN!!! And my take on what K.L, said was "I can be paid to sign a set back waiever so I can make money too" I knew that was coming from him before he even opened his mouth! And ya know what I do not care who makes money from the wind turbines, I know it will not be me and I am still for clean green energy.

"But at least base your own opinion specific to the data which is presented here after reading opposing view points."

"These are going to be mighty close to my house and I still say go for it"

"How close are they going to be?"

My point exactly, does not matter what we do comment on or say, you just keep up with the SGC crap!

Anonymous said...

"infringe on the constitutionally given rights of others to do what they want with what they own in a manner they see fit."

The Constitution does not "give you rights"

What article or amendment of the Constitution are you refering to? It is not there.

There are no industry standards for setbacks. The "Model" is not law.

The good Potter County people have always been independent in their thinking and actions.

Why do we all of a sudden need to fall in goose step with the rest of the sheepole?

"Oh...and France can "piss off!" Welcome to Gods Country U.S.A."

What a lovely christian statement from someone from Gods Country.

Anonymous said...

"I am for clean green wind energy"

I am too, just don't pick my pocket to do it with tax credits.

"Each time we post that we spent days experiencing the wind turbine farms"

Your findings are just as valid as the people who live in close proximity and do experience symptions, however, no one lives under a wind turbine machine.

Your finings are different then the people who complain about noise,vibration etc...

Why are they different?

What is different about your and their experiences?

Anonymous said...

Don't get me wrong...

I'm an environmentalist and I'm for alternative energy too...

BUT...

Let me ask you a question which relates to Wind power referencing water power....

Now, do you see folks damming up little creeks in Potter County for hydro electric power?

No...

Why not?

They just are not large enough to produce power.

Same with the wind..

Not much in Potter.

In fact, there is more wind power in the plains states (why? Because they are flat) and Texas and North & South Dakota.

Also around and on The Great Lakes and Oceans.

But not much in Potter.

So the question remains...

Why not build facilities WHERE THE POTENTIAL IS GREATEST? Rather than where it is not?

When we used to have a steel industry, where were the plants located?

Near Coal...

Where is there still Coal?

In Pennsylvania.

Get it?

Some apparently don't.

Again I say, start looking at this without rose colored Republican glasses....

Maybe you will see reality...

Folks all over are hurting not just in Potter County.

Start asking our local government officials such as our United States Congressmen & Senators what they have done lately to bring jobs to Potter County?

I don't see much activity, do you?

And a note to Enis:

The skies above Cherry Springs have always been dark...

It's been a State Park since 1938 long before AES was ever thought of.

It's just taken a while for folks to realize how special it is.

Don't knock Tourist Dollar Enis...I know quite a few folks in Potter are happy enough that many are deciding to come to Potter County and spend money.

And it's more than likely that because of those Tourist Dollars that prices are not higher than they are!

Anonymous said...

One Anonymous person lists eco-tourism...

I guess he or she doesn't understand the term...

Everyone who comes to Cherry Springs Dark Sky Park to see the heavens as God laid them out is an

ECO-TOURIST!

And the quip you made about the DCNR Report?

The truth is that they tried their best...but failed.

The Clanton Group was thought to be a reputable company...

Fact is that this is appparently the first time they ever testified about Wind Farm Strobe lights...

That are of course different because they are made to be seen by aircraft.

That's not the same as using full cutoff light fixtures that direct light down to the ground where it is needed.

Apples and Oranges here.

They also did not even attempt to consider that the impact is not just AES but the other proposed Wind Farms in surrounding counties not far from Cherry Springs.

And light accumulates...

Don't believe me? Well try an experiment..

Tonight take a flashlight turned on and several candles into a dark room.

Light one candle and turn off your flashlight.

Notice how dim it is...

Now light another candle...

It's brighter right?

Well, the same thing applies to Cherry Springs...

Put one Wind Farm up with many of the turbines sprouting strobe lights and it's already brighter.

Put up several more wind farms in surrounding townships and counties and it gets brighter still.

Now, explain to me why we want to disrupt the very first Dark Sky Park in the State which also happens to be only the second International Dark Sky Park on the planet?

Cherry Springs is now an historical landmark...

And don't we protect Historical Landmarks?

BTW there is another, much more comprehensive report by The Pennsylvania Outdoor Lighting Committee...

Which is a PENNSYLVANIA group not a bunch of out-of-state, know-it-alls...

And that report is against the siting of wind farms near Cherry Springs.

Anonymous said...

I'm not waiting to see if the inefficient turbines come in or not. I'm putting my house up for sale NOW and getting OUT of Potter County BEFORE my property value declines even more!

MAC said...

"Section 7.0 Conclusion" of the research document titled "Noise Radiation from Wind Turbines Installed Near Homes: Effects on Health."
http://www.windturbinenoisehealthhumanrights.com/wtnhhr_june2007.pdf

"Although the Government may conclude that they must wait for the scientific evidence to unfold, this approach ignores those many families - and those who will unfortunately and inevitably follow - who are experiencing genuine distress, and whose predicament could so easily have been avoided.

"As this is a matter of public health policy, proceeding with wind turbine developments and applications that violate the public's health may also be a violation of the Human Rights Act by the landowners, the wind turbine developers, and the State.

"The Review addresses the issue of Human Rights in Section 6. Although European States have 'Bylaws' or 'Guidances' and the United States has 'Ordinances' that provide guidance to Planning decision makers, in the final analysis it is contended that the responsibility of the decision maker is not merely to seek compliance with a Bylaw/Guidance/Ordinance in arithmetical terms, but also to establish beyond reasonsable doubt that the families' right to respect for their homes and their private lives is not violated. If the State decides that the public interest in building wind turbines is greater than the individual private interest, then the violation is not proportionate without compensation for the individual (S6.34)."

Contact the Commissions and ask them to support the establishment of a wider margin for safety (2-miles) within which families have available to them remedy options - for example: establishment of an escrow fund to buyout homeowners who are negatively impacted by noise, wish to sell their homes but can not.

As I understand it, since there are no Pennsylvania state laws or regulations governing how local ordinances are to be crafted, there is no need to be distracted by claims that counties or townships will be taken to court over some imagined violation by what some contend to be an overly restrictive ordinance.

Given the overwhelming amount of information, both anecdotal and scientific research (and I'm sure I've only just scratched the surface), on the existence of wind turbine noise and it's negative impact on the health of those who live too close, no one in an official capacity at the county or township level can from a moral or legal perspective proceed without first setting public safety as their primary objective.

MAC said...

This will help you understand why wind power development is a con job.

Misplaced State Government Faith in “Wind Energy”
An Analysis and Report by Glenn R. Schleede
http://johnrsweet.com/Personal/Wind/PDF/Schleede-KansasWind-20050301.pdf

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"I'm not waiting to see if the inefficient turbines come in or not. I'm putting my house up for sale NOW and getting OUT of Potter County BEFORE my property value declines even more!"

Good riddance, and don't let the turbine blade hit you in the a-- on your way out.

ENIS,,,,,a Native Potter Countyian

Anonymous said...

Per Paul...
"Do you have my permission for that sale? That's something I don't take lightly!"
Campagne 07
Front Page

Brussel Sprout

Anonymous said...

ENIS, how do you post while you're in Harrisburg? You'll have to show me that trick.
How is the Vette running?

Anonymous said...

ENIS, how do you post while you're
in Harrisburg?
---
I took my lap top. Da!
---
How is the Vette running?
---
Quit PRES-sing me for a TON of info I can't give. No one is going to make me jump through HOOPES.
It's my land I can do what I want!!

ENIS,,,,,a Native Potter Countyian

Anonymous said...

I just wanted to say that I attended the meeting and I was glad to see that the commisioners took the meeting seriously.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"I'm not waiting to see if the inefficient turbines come in or not. I'm putting my house up for sale NOW and getting OUT of Potter County BEFORE my property value declines even more!"
I say... " dont forget your earplugs ... its a noisy world out there!"

Anonymous said...

"Good riddance, and don't let the turbine blade hit you in the a-- on your way out."

"Quit PRES-sing me for a TON of info I can't give. No one is going to make me jump through HOOPES.
It's my land I can do what I want!!"

"ENIS,,,,,a Native Potter Countyian"

Once again these are not my post,,,,,,,not even my style!!!! The ANTIS are weakening,,,,and now they send out the new recruits with new tricks!!!! The tricks they learned at a earlier age resulted in wearin glasses,,,,,,and with the new tricks those glasses may get broken!!!! How 'bout it imposter???? I know,,,,,you'll pull the SGC harassment card!!!!

TURBINES are coming!!!!!

PRO,,,,,,,a NATIVE POTTER COUNTYIAN

Anonymous said...

"ENIS, how do you post while you're in Harrisburg? You'll have to show me that trick.
How is the Vette running?"

Read the post above!!!
It's not running!!! Still waitin fer the 1.5 Rockers!!!!

TURBINES are coming!!!!

PRO

Anonymous said...

"But you exceed the setbacks since yer in Chester County"

Once again SIRBLOGALOT your creibility take yet another blow!!!!

TURBINES are coming!!!!,,,,,Give up the fight!!!!

Anonymous said...

O.K. Lets just give you one small portion of the constitution as it applies to private property

To acquire,have and use the means necessary to excercise the natural rights and pursue hapiness,specifically including:

(1)A private residence,from which others may be excluded
(2)Tools needed for ones livelihood
(3)Personal property,which others may be denied the use of.
(4)Arms suitable for personal and community defense

The classic definition of "natural rights" are "life,liberty,and property"

Restrictions of the powers of Governments:

Shall not disable any "natural" or constitutional right without due process of law,and then only to the extent necessary to avoid infringing on these rights.

Hmmmm.....The whole version will tell you things obout property owners constitutional rights that may make you take your foot out of your mouth!

Anonymous said...

Read the letters to the editor this week and have to say, Jim Tork hit the nail right on the head.

Our local government had better wake up that this is the USA where we are to be governed "for the people and by the people"!

Private land owners are just that, they bought and paid for their property. IF our local commissioners feel the need to "dictate" and "control" I guess they had better do away with their property tax system!

"Again I say, start looking at this without rose colored Republican glasses...."

Funny I seem to remember seeing Pro green clean energy people from both political parties at the meeting! In fact I seem to remember saying to someone after the meeting that it was nice to see both party members for the wind turbines!

Now for a few more...
"The skies above Cherry Springs have always been dark..."

Since the skies have all ways been dark what was the purpose of not renewing the local lease for the airport? Guess it had not hurt the "dark skies" for decades!

"Don't knock Tourist Dollar Enis...I know quite a few folks in Potter are happy enough that many are deciding to come to Potter County and spend money."

And I guess those folks are happy because it did not shut down their business thay ran for years!
Eddie star gazer was asked this question quit some time ago and ignored the question...as long as you got what you want it did not matter that a local business paid the price?!

Anonymous said...

And which local business went out of business?

What? The airport?

It is my understanding that the permit wasn't renewed...

Also my understanding that a visitor's centered will be erected on that site.

Sounds like a job or two might be created here...at least some construction will occur and that's money in some workers pockets..construction workers I mean.

And as to bringing money in?

Ask your local gas station owners, motel owners and food stores.

Yes, when you have eco-tourists they spend their money. And some of these folks have lots of money.

Know what I see here?

I see a county that discovered a gemstone right in it's own backyard. It's just like finding a pile of money that you put away somewhere for safekeeping and forgot about it and now you can use it.

What in the world is so terribly wrong in using your resources wisely?

Why not talk to these folks?

Why not decide to "cash in" by providing services or stocking items that these folks might buy?

Sounds to me like a few folks here don't have a lot of common sense.

These Stargazing vacationers come here to look at the sky and some take nice photographs.

They personally leave with fond memories with visions of coming back...

What else do they leave?

A commodity that Potter county needs quite a lot of ...

Cold, hard cash...

And I'm sure that it comes in handy to local merchants too.

Most probably it deters local inflation for everyone.

What's so bad about that?

Funny how some seem to think the electric utility, AES , is a group of "Saints" and those that are against are devils or heathens?

Anonymous said...

Now stargazers and clean energy supporters can live in peace.

The only fact that remains is that our county, country, and earth will benefit.
That is what this is all about, right?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said....
There clear message was: It is my land, I can do what I want on it and to HEll with the my neighbor.

Well, I would love to dictate what you do on yours.
Bulldose your house and move out of this county!

Anonymous said...

Of course it's really very illuminating to see that it's all ..

"My rights, mine and me"

Well, what about everyone else's rights?

What about saying...

I'm going to be a good neighbor and make sure that the turbine is a decent distance away from his house?

Instead of taking for granted anything that an electric utility says?

Anonymous said...

Can Stargazers and clean energy supporters live in peace?

Probably if the clean energy is Solar and if the wind power is generated by small, residential turbines that

DO NOT NEED STROBE LIGHTS!

Anonymous said...

Well.. we had some great points made by the Antis>
"Not in my back yard!"
I guess you got that right, no one asked to put one in your back yard.
"Sounds like a jet engine, even louder than the buffalo airport"
Hmmm, I didnt see any earplugs or headphones on the guy who was in a room that was louder than Wind turbines.
"I want to sign a waiver"
Said by someone who said leasers with AES are greedy, enough said there.
Listen to yourself with your ridiculous Drs who claim that by going two miles down the road will deprecciate the symptoms of WIND TURBINE SYNDROME.
What is the matter with people?

Anonymous said...

THANKS SO MUCH FOR RECOGNIZING THAT WITH SOME GOOD ADVERTISING AND PROMOTION WE COULD BUILD CHERRY SPRINGS INTO A GOLD MINE.
PEOPLE LIKE EXPOSING THEIR CHILDREN TO THESE THINGS ESPECIALLY CHILDREN WHO LIVE
WITHOUT BENEFIT OF STARS. IT COULD MAKE THIS COUNTY MONEY IF JUST ONE PERSON WAS SMART ENOUGH TO REALIZE THAT WE NEED MARKETING..
A SALES PITCH. IT'S DONE EVERY SINGLE DAY...MAYBE D.B. CANNOT HANDLE THIS ONE...BUT GOOD PR COULD. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME
THAT POTATO CITY WAS A TRULY VIABLE AIR STRIP?? A VISITORS CENTER WOULD BE A GIANT ASSET.
PROMOTE WHAT WE HAVE INSTEAD OF
DESTROYING IT FOR SOMETHING THAT
WILL DESTROY OUT SPIRIT, PRODUCE LITTLE IF ANY WIND AND LEAVE US
ALL IN CHAOS.

Anonymous said...

And I think it's all about really having some pride in your community...

That's what the Potter County Commisioners seem to be saying...

That we understand the importance of This Park and we will do everything we can to protect and enhance this important resource in Potter County.

That's really simple...

Having some pride in your community...

And Mr. Enis and some others don't seem to get that...

Why not cash in on it?

Talk to the folks who run Cherry Springs...

Talk to the folks who run The Cherry Springs Star Party and The Black Forest Star Party...

Ask these folks what you could do to enhance the enjoyment that the area brings to them?

And if you can then provide a service....

Maybe stock some relevant books...

Or relevant items...

Join in the fun and the wonder and the awe...instead of dissing them!

Anonymous said...

anonymous said:
What about saying...
I'm going to be a good neighbor and make sure that the turbine is a decent distance away from his house?

Well, when I bought my property the bank didnt say " as part of the conditions you must please your neighbor."
Sounds like yours did though, so honor Potter County taxpayers wishes and go back to the city where you belong!!

Anonymous said...

BRAVO..my hero. Cherry Springs is a gift to Potter County. We could share this positive God given beauty with the world. Children do not see stars anymore in many parts of our country/world. Mine
had to make do with 'glow in the dark' stars affixed to his bedroom
ceiling. The lights have completely
taken over in large cities and suburban areas and our children ask where the stars have gone.
Cherry Springs is here for us to
advertise, promote and utilize
to enrich all of us. Ya gotta
wonder...giant Industrial Turbines that generate a tiny bit of wind..or WHAT GOD GAVE US TO SHARE.

Anonymous said...

If I give up my "rights" to my neighbor, what is he willing to give up? When I purchased my land, I recieved "rights". I can do anything with it as I darn well please, as long as I follow the laws. When the Commissioners write new rules, they are taking a few of my "rights" away. Follow the State regulations, they seem to get it right most of the time.

Anonymous said...

Well,...

Maybe the bank didn't tell you to be a good neighbor but...

When you leave this life you won't be talking to an Earthly Bank Manager now will you?

And I rather suspect that if you don't rely on God's mercy
(and this is what being a good neighbor is too) than the good Lord
won't be so terribly kind to you either...

And don't tell me I'm wrong either!

Anonymous said...

What if my neighbor isn't a good neighbor? God might be awful busy.

You could be right

Anonymous said...

"Follow the State regulations, they seem to get it right most of the time"

For the 100th time...

THERE ARE NO STATE REGULATIONS!

Your are either misinformed or a deliberate liar out to deceive.

Anonymous said...

"When the Commissioners write new rules, they are taking a few of my "rights" away"

New regulations, land use regulationg, zoning laws, laws are institued all the time.

It's a progressive act of enlightment, of this thing, some of us live in called a society.

Membership is always open.

Anonymous said...

FOR THE 101TH time there ARE state regulations.

Anonymous said...

While you antis are making displays, soggy fries, and having kitchen table "meetings", us farmers are putting in our crops and preparing for winter.
While you want us to to respect your wishes, we want you to respect our wishes too.
Get out now before the wind turbines come, because THEY ARE !

Anonymous said...

Everyone that is out of work or working for lousy wages or working like a dog on a farm for next to nothing hurry up and open a store or a motel or a gift shop because soon you will be swamped with huge throngs of star gazers just emptying their pockets to support us all and save us from those monster money grubbing wind people!
PLEASE....You don"t generate enough revenue to pay 50 peoples taxes.....Earth to stargazer...Phone Home....

Anonymous said...

When you buy a car, you pay taxes, you pay licence fees, you pay interest on the loan and yes you end up owning the car. It is your car and you can do anything you want with it, right.
WRONG!! There are regulations:
1. You must follow the speed limit
2. you must drive on the correct side of the road
3. you must use your turn signals when turning.
4. You can not tailgate
5. you get the point, there are many more you can't do.
It is your car, why can't you do any thing you want with it? Because the regulations created are not made to restrict the car owner, but to protect the rest of us from some idiot that would kill us if he was allowed to do what ever he wanted with his car.
It is the same reasoning why the residents of Potter county need to be protected from the wind turbines and the people that are willing to jeopardize the rest of us by siting turbines to close to our homes. A zoing ordinance is not to restrict the landowner, but to give protection to the rest of us. Read some of the pro-wind peoples post an see just how vicious they sound.

Anonymous said...

To Mr. Anonymous who is a farmer:

Please explain what this wind farm will do for you?

Will it power your machines or your house?

No

Is it an industry that might provide any one of your relatives a job?

No

Will it provide you some money?

Maybe if you are planning to lease..

But, wait a second...

Do you have more of a right than every other resident in Potter County or say even Pennsylvania?

No you don't.

Yes, every last one of us regular folks know how bad the economy really is...

Perhaps you voted for that guy in the White House?

I don't know...

But don't blame me because I didn't vote for him.

Don't take it out on your neighbors who were not born yesterday...

We know how reputable Electric Utilities are....

Companies who raise their rates almost every time someone sneezes...

Companies who lie and cheat us at every turn...

Companies who cut corners so bad that produced a partial nuclear meltdown at Three Mile Island...

And not to forget that these are the same folks that will reap a nice tidy profit in a bit more than a year from now because the cap on their rates will disappear.

Now, are you going to tell me I should trust AES Corp?

You have to be pulling my leg right?

Anonymous said...

"to protect the rest of us from some idiot that would kill us"

I assume "some idiot" is a lessor.

"Read some of the pro-wind peoples post an see just how vicious they sound."

Oxymoron

Anonymous said...

And to another anonymous who says that stargazers don't generate enough revenue, I ask how would you know?

I am quite sure if you found a way to regularly make x amount of additional income every month that you wouldn't throw it away?

Most of us wouldn't, except if you are fairly well off...

Anonymous said...

Yes, regulations, like government, exist to protect us from those who just can't be as honest or caring as we hope that we all are.

Look at what's happening in the economy as we speak...

This is life without regulations...

And we are teetering very close to a depression...

And look who's at fault?

The very folks that have always said that regulations are bad...

Anonymous said...

Another note to the farmer:

Well, respecting wishes goes both ways...

When wer the leases with AES
Corp signed?

I seem to recall hearing that it wasn't before 2003...

At least that's what I've heard.

This is a slight problem with that..

The State of Pennsylvania declared that Cherry Springs State Park was the very first Dark Sky Park & Preserve way back in ...

2000.

Now, what is it that you were saying about respecting wishes?

The State of Pennsylvania didn't keep this a secret you know...

You and your other pals apparently didn't notice this.

(And yes I can sympathize and I do)

Of course, neither did the smart guys at AES Corp either...

Sorry friend farmer but you have been had..and AES Corp has egg on their faces because they...

CHOSE NOT TO DO THEIR RESEARCH!

Thankfully, you didn't lose any money on the project...

But I think AES will lose quite a bit of face...

Oh, too bad...Big stupid Corporation gets bested..

BY THE PEOPLE!

Anonymous said...

Wow,how far you people will reach to counteract a view you obviously can't comprehend has my head swimming.Cars????You are defending your views on constitutional rights with cars???At least post something with some sort of rational reasoning behind it.Your becomming your own worst enemy.
"Wind turbines,Property Rights,The Constitution, and their relationship to my Buick?" AHHHHHHH!

Anonymous said...

What are the State regulations regarding Wind Turbines installation & where can I find them? Thanks

Anonymous said...

HELLLOOOO!
YOUR OPINIONS DO NOT MATTER!
LAWS TO PROTECT HEALTH SAFETY AND THE ENVIRONMENT AREN'T MADE BECAUSE OF OPINIONS!
GEESH!
A restaurant that generates a thick stench on a Friday evening may not bother you, but it bothers me. Just because it bothers me doesn't mean I start some freakish protesting group.

Anonymous said...

A UN panel of scientists and over 160 governments agree that the burning of fossil fuels (coal, oil and gas) is causing our climate to change dramatically. Last year the UK Government predicted that global warming will expose many millions more people to the risks of hunger, drought, flooding and diseases like malaria, and produce irreversible losses of species.

Clean, renewable forms of energy, such as wind power, are essential if we are to tackle climate change. They are also vital in ending the threat of nuclear power, which would leave a legacy of nuclear waste that will remain a threat to our health and the environment for hundreds of thousands of years.

Here's why wind power, in particular, deserves your support:

* It's clean. Wind power does not produce dangerous waste, nor does it contribute to global warming.
* It's abundant and reliable. The UK is the windiest country in Europe and the resource is much greater during the colder months of the year, when energy demand is at its highest. Wind power, in combination with a full range of renewable energy technologies, such as wave and solar, could meet all of our electricity needs. Technology is being developed to store wind power as hydrogen which can then be used to power fuel cells in power stations and in vehicles.
* It's affordable. The first offshore wind turbines in the UK are producing power more cheaply than our newest nuclear power station. The UK Government's figures show that all wind power will be cheaper than nuclear power by 2020.
* It works. Denmark already gets 20% of its electricity from wind power.
* It creates jobs. The wind industry could bring thousands of new jobs to the UK, many of them using offshore engineering skills used by the declining oil and gas industry. If offshore wind were developed to supply just 10% of the UK's electricity, then 36,000 jobs could be created.
* It's safe. Unlike nuclear power stations, wind turbines are unlikely terrorist targets.
* It's popular. Wind energy is one of the most popular energy technologies. Opinion surveys regularly show that just over eight out of ten people are in favour of wind energy, and less than one in ten (around 5%) are against it.

Anonymous said...

It's really disgusting to hear about this !
Where does this end ?
What is the next sort of a GIANT monster ?
Do not install these mechanical Monsters!

Anonymous said...

To all you anti, SGC bloggers; wake up and smell the coffee people! Contracts were signed BEFORE there were any ordinances therefor there had better be a "grand-fther" clause in the ordinances. B.C. should be smart enought to know this.

And as far as "cashing" in on Cherry Springs, give me a brake!

I guess we as Potter County Tax Paying Registered Voters and Land Owners should bow and scrape the the flat landers! In a Pigs A**!

We have either worked in local industry or own local business that have not relied on visitors many dollars over the years and why should we change now. Cash in on the big money, ya right!

P.C.V.A. had better be paying close attention to this matter because as far as I am concerned I hope each and every one of these farmsers block off their land.
We are not talking about 10 or 20 acres either, we are talking about thousands of acres here.

And you anti's that keep bitchin about the farmers, they have given and given for years as far as hard work, keeping their land open for visitors ejoyment and property tax money paid to the county. Sad you think so little of the people that in harvest season work from sun up to most of the time PAST sun down. Maybe you should eat all your veggies and meat that is imported from China so you can "wonder" what was used to grow and raise it!

Anonymous said...

Contracts were signed?

Contracts were NOT signed with the townships or the county.

If they had been, everybody would know when.

I repeat again:

If you signed a contract with AES Corp as a landowner it is invalid!

It's only valid IF and WHEN contracts are signed with local governments which include the Townships and Potter County.

Secondly,

Even IF you signed a contract in 2003 or later there is a second problem:

The State of Pennsylvania made Cherry Springs a Dark Sky Park and Preserve in 2000.

This was an act of the legislature, not something that someone just thought up...

That Contract is valid and supersedes anything that came after.

Sorry, but you didn't do your research and neither did AES Corp.

In fact, after the Sweden Twp officials decided to table the discussion AES Corp said that if there were too many restrictions they would pull out of Potter County entirely.

MAC said...

While the following suggestions come from Canada, hoefully, they will give those of you interested in leasing your land some ideas how to negotiate with the power companies. If you can get a lawyer to help you, better yet.

From the ONTARIO FEDERATION of AGRICULTURE APRIL 2007

30 Suggestions on Wind Power Leases for Farmers
Ontario needs power and farmers need income. OFA favours wind power where generators do not harm
other things important to the community. If you sign a lease make sure it fits your plan for your farm.

1 Meet with your neighbours – Meet and work with your neighbours and OFA Services Rep.

2 Cost of a Lawyer - Ask the wind power company to pay to have the agreement reviewed by a
lawyer who will work for everyone in the area. This saves you $ 500 to $ 1,000.

3 Transferability - Add a clause that stipulates that the agreement cannot be transferred by the
wind company to any person or company without your approval.

4 Appearance – No leases address appearance, but you could have to look at it for 50 years.
Add a clause that prohibits advertising on the tower.
Add a clause that stipulates the paint colour be agreed and repainted if it becomes rusty.
Add a clause that covers effective reclamation of the site when all is done.

5 Building Restrictions – Attach a map of the property to the agreement that outlines areas
where new buildings over 20 metres can and cannot be built.

6 Fill Material - Under no circumstances should a developer use fill taken from your land.

7 Gear oil - You can use the lease to prohibit the use of toxic gear oil.

8 Option Termination - Add a clause that stipulates that the option ends at 5:00 p.m. on a
specific date if construction has not started by that date. You need a clear ending to the option.

9 Net Meter Tower - Ask the company to lend you its crane to install your own net metered
wind generator. You must be ready when they are, but it could save you $ 10,000.

10 Option - The minimum should be $ 5,000/ 100 acres for three to five years. No renewal; they
put up a wind tower or they are gone. No payment is enough to make a bad lease worthwhile.

11 Rent – Rent should be at 3% for the first eight years then go to 8% once bank loans etc. are
covered. Rent should apply to all income from the project including green house gas credits.

12 Insurance - Add a clause stipulating that the wind company must produce a valid certificate of
insurance covering liability to the farm and others each year and that it assumes full liability for
damage caused by the wind tower or the contractors or consultants etc..

13 Protect Capital Value - Add a clause requiring the wind power company to make whole any
losses in re-sale value that might occur as a result of the lease or a wind tower being in place. If
the wind tower effects your land value, losses might not be covered by rent.

14 0ther Development – If the property may be valuable for other development in the next 30
years do not sign, you will be giving the wind company your future profits or capital gains.

15 Your Other Rights - Some leases have clauses that appropriate your development rights for
aggregates, ground water, top soil, sale outside of the family and even your right to speak in
public on wind power questions. Any such clause should be stricken from the agreement.

16 Tenants Rights - Stipulate that the only rights the tenant will have are the rights to do needed
studies, the rights to construct, operate and maintain no more than two wind towers per 100
acres as well as required roads and wires, and to remove the electricity from the site to the grid.

17 A Cooling Off Period – have a clause that states that either party may cancel the agreement
within 30 days without reason or penalty.

18 Power Sales - Stipulate that power must be sold to government or you get to approve any
other contract. Without this power can be sold to a subsidiary of the wind power company and
the 3% rent you were hoping for will 3% of very little.

19 Hours, Times of Access – Access for emergencies at any time. Other access between 8:00
a.m. and 5:00 p.m. Monday to Friday and requires notice so there is no interference with
seeding, harvests, calving, or other farm or family activities that are time restricted

20 Area of Lease - Limit the area covered by lease to a suitably small area – 1 to 5 acres

21 Applies to One Lot Only - Limit the agreement so it only applies to the actual lot leased and
that there is no reference to any other land owned by the farmer

22 Conversion to Easement – Do not allow a conversion to an easement as it will be more
difficult, perhaps impossible to discharge at the end.

23 Quitclaim – ensure the lease provides for a clean end so the wind company cannot be
released from the lease or recover funds from the escrow account without your approval and
certification that they have met all their obligations including clean up.

24 Wind Rights Only - Do not allow any clause that gives the wind power company a right of first
refusal or an option for any purpose other than the use of the wind. Such clauses encumber
sales, wills, development of other businesses etc.

25 Term of Lease – suggest 3 year option, 20 years for first term and 5 year renewals to follow.
This provides enough time to do tests and make profits and brings the replacement date for the
generator and the lease renewal dates closer together, which improves your negotiating position.

26 Assessment and Property Taxes – the land owner is ultimately responsible for taxes – a
clause to require the wind power company to pay taxes associated with the wind tower is
essential and it requires an enforcement clause – you cannot afford their taxes, unless you have
their income. In the case of default, you should get the licences to produce and sell power.

27 Escrow Fund – Require the tenant to have an escrow fund held with your lawyer or a trust
company. This fund will be established with the start of construction and used to pay any
arrears in taxes, any maintenance that the company refuses to do and will fund reclamation.

28 Registration of Surveys – surveys should only be registered with your approval and the
agreement should specify that the tenant does not acquire a legal right of way or any privilege
that could lead to shared or sole title. The tenant only acquires limited rights to use for a period,
but no easements or rights of way.

29 Wait ‘Til You Know Your Choices – The government has a Standard Offer. You can have
your own wind project or you can find other firms or partners. You may do better than you
might as a landlord. Don’t sign a lease until you have considered the choices and
determined what is best for your farm operation for the next 20 plus years.

30 If you wish to increase your bargaining power apply to Hydro One or your local
distribution company for the right to connect a generator yourself. The connection
agreement is valuable, acquire it for yourself.

Anonymous said...

"Contracts were signed?
Contracts were NOT signed with the townships or the county."

They do not have to be!

"If they had been, everybody would know when.
I repeat again:
If you signed a contract with AES Corp as a landowner it is invalid!
It's only valid IF and WHEN contracts are signed with local governments which include the Townships and Potter County."

I REPEAT they do not have to be!

Well Woo Haa...what a mouth full!
I hope you did YOUR research on Potter County not on your home town in Bucks County, BUT it sounds to me like you DID!

Now let me say this
s l o w ...Potter County has NO ZONING kaa?????

You do not need to sign a contract with any state or county agency to
exercise your rights on your PRIVATE LAND!

I know because I have signed legal leases and or contracts of other types on my PRIVATE LAND located on Potter County!

"This was an act of the legislature, not something that someone just thought up..."

And do you know why there HAD to be an act of legislation...BECAUSE IT IS STATE OWNED LAND! DUH

"In fact, after the Sweden Twp officials decided to table the discussion AES Corp said that if there were too many restrictions they would pull out of Potter County entirely."

Keep hoping "little man" cause it will not happen! The turbines are comin'!

Anonymous said...

Ed for the last time DCNR has ruled that wind mills will not impact your wonderful dark sky so call mommy and have her bring you more warm apple pie and go back to polishing your "telescope" I know next your going to tell me again that the DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES that knighted your wonderful dark sky dose not know whats best for her. On a darker note I don't believe it matters when you signed the contract but if you had started construction you would be golden, but please consult your own lawyer. But as for the dark sky dont worrie about a thing DCNR is pro-wind.

Anonymous said...

if a restaurant creates a stench
on a Friday night..it is self limiting...from 5 til 8 on Friday night. I'm certain that if it was
a major issue to health and
safety, better ventilation could
be created. Truly 3 hours a week
as opposed to 24/7...you are grasping at straws.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm...

Nothing needs to be signed?

Anything that gets built,goes through a detailed process, especially if it's a commercial venture.

It goes through the township or townships and may have to go to the County level.

Now, many times that process is begun and is handled very quietly so that when it becomes public, the ink is already on the paper and the only other way for the public to say anything is through the courts and usually that doesn't work.

In the case of this wind farm, apparently AES didn't have everything together by 2000 or earlier and no one knew of their interest anyway.

So this question as with many in life comes down to something very simple...

Those who show up get to make the decisions.

And if you show up and I don't then I don't get to do whatever it is that I want to and vice versa.

Very simple.

Now, there could be a chance for AES to have their wind farm if they are able to prove that their strobe capped turbines will not interfere with Cherry Springs and if they use the technology that would limit the strobe light to being on only when aircraft were in it's radar beam or flocks of birds or bats, only then would the Commissioners possibly give an ok.

Then again, AES Corp has already said if their are too many restrictions they may just decide to pull out entirely.

So even if a few folks, some having signed leases, want the wind farm, if it's deemed to be detrimental to Cherry Springs it might not get built.

At this point, it's up to the Commissioners and sounds like the Township Supervisors may follow their lead.

Anonymous said...

In other words...

The approval process, that runs the gamut from blueprints to variances to votes etc. is a long and involved process.

And it begins with asking what the impacts would be to the township and or county.

Just because any citizen or group of citizens wants to do something doesn't necessarily mean their idea will be ok'd and built.

Anonymous said...

And just because someone dose not want something dose not mean they get to hold development hostage by calling the developer Un-Christian.

Anonymous said...

Behavior can not lie

Anonymous said...

Technological change is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal.
Albert Einstein

Anonymous said...

Now, there could be a chance for "AES to have their wind farm if they are able to prove that their strobe capped turbines will not interfere with Cherry Springs and if they use the technology that would limit the strobe light to being on only when aircraft were in it's radar beam or flocks of birds or bats, only then would the Commissioners possibly give an ok."

WAS NOT EVEN BROUGHT UP AT THE MEETING! SOUND AND SET BACKS WERE THE MAIN TOPIC OF THE REMARKS MADE!
I Know because I was there!

Anonymous said...

"At this point, it's up to the Commissioners and sounds like the Township Supervisors may follow their lead."

Do not put your cart before your buggy as the final draft is NOT completed yet!

Anonymous said...

In response to:
if a restaurant creates a stench
on a Friday night BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!

Shadow flicker from any one component isnt 24/7 or even 365.
Get the facts!

Anonymous said...

The bottom line is really this...

The State of Pennsylvania thought enough of Cherry Springs State Park to consider it a valuable resource. And that is why it declared that it would be a
"Dark Sky Park and Preserve".

That was in 2000.

Where was AES?

Apparently, they waited until 2003 to approach folks.

Being that as it may, anytime there is a development proposal, The County Commissioners must look at that proposal in light of the environmental impact it would have on Cherry Springs.

In other words it becomes the question...

Who was there first?

If it had been the other way around, I assure you that the turbines would not be turned off or taken down.

Anonymous said...

And as far as it being not discussed...

Heck we all know how those public meetings are, not everything gets to be aired but...

It is in the draft regulations.

And again it comes back to the realization that Pennslyvania has already deemed Cherry Springs as a valuable resource so county and township governments have to look at all development in terms of environmental impact...

And here that means any excess light.

Anonymous said...

"Anything that gets built,goes through a detailed process, especially if it's a commercial venture."

IF there are existing regulations on the books...here are a few that were not on the books at the time of signing;

No permit fee
No setbacks
No Noise level restriction
No lighting level restriction

NONE OF THESE ORDINANCES WERE ON THE BOOKS IN POTTER COUNTY AT THE TIME THE CONTRACTS WERE SIGNED!

Got It?!

Anonymous said...

The only contracts I know of were the leases by AES to landowners.

Even if there were, everyone would know that and we would be way beyond these hearings.

Trust me, I've seen these things happen before.

It's only the beginning of the process.

Now, I will say this again, Cherry Springs was made a dark sky park in 2000.

Landowners and AES officials could and did care less...

And that's why Cherry Springs has a chance.

Because it's all about who gets there first.

Both the County Commissioners and Township officials must consider the environmental impact on Cherry Springs when they consider any proposal for building any facitlity now.

That fact will never change.

Anonymous said...

"Both the County Commissioners and Township officials must consider the environmental impact on Cherry Springs when they consider any proposal for building any facitlity now."

They received the only report they need and it was submitted to them by DCNR, oh that's right, you are choosing not to believe their report, sorry, forgot! Ha

Once again I'd like to remind you "Lighting" was not even an issue that was discussed 9.11.08, I know I was there!

Anonymous said...

Nope, sorry you are mistaken.

I am quite sure that the commissioners saw the report by POLC..

Question is...did you?

Apparently not.

Now, just because lighting was not implicitly discussed does not mean it does not have a bearing.

Remember, that hearing was for the public....

Others have already privately made their view known to the commissioners ...

Privately.

Anonymous said...

AES has already said publicly if there is too much regulation they will pull out.

It depends on how much money they want to spend or not to spend to make the deal.

You gotta wonder why they might make such a statement...

Sounds to me is if they are having second thoughts and maybe realizing that this particular spot really will not be profitable.

Anonymous said...

"It depends on how much money they want to spend or not to spend to make the deal.
You gotta wonder why they might make such a statement..."

Most businesses look at investments in this manner, nothing new or different about this statement to me. If memory serves they have been looking into this for over 5 years now.

"Remember, that hearing was for the public....
Others have already privately made their view known to the commissioners ..."

Right back at ya, "pro" clean energy people have done the same!

Anonymous said...

Yes and apparently you didn't review the POLC report done by an in-state group NOT an out-of-state group.

One way or the other, either by saying no wind farm or requiring that strobe topped turbines be fitted with radar technology turning the strobe off when not needed, in the end, we will not be defeated....

97% of Americans don't ever see the sky and we are determined to make sure that Cherry Springs Dark Sky Park & Preserve is

PRESERVED!

Anonymous said...

Let me tell ya what buddy, you people are a pain right in the you know what.
THERE ARE MORE CONTRIBUTORS THAN ONE for the dark sky issues, I will expexct to see a post asking schools to remove flood lights and resturaunts to remove them as well.
Then I want you research, come on pal.. post some FACTS!!

Anonymous said...

Well Pal, I wonder what you will say to the good Lord when he asks you why you stood in the way of letting his children SEE the Universe that he created?

Anonymous said...

"Well Pal, I wonder what you will say to the good Lord when he asks you why you stood in the way of letting his children SEE the Universe that he created?"

You have got to be kidding, right?
What the heck kinda statement is this?

You mean if we support clean green energy like wind turbines we are not Good and True Christians?

I was raised to believe that there is one judge in life and that is GOD, NOT the Save Gods Country Clan! You must really think highly of yourself to make a remark like the one you just blogged, heavens! Furthermore TRUE Christians do not judge others, guess you missed out on that "life lesson" !

Anonymous said...

You seem to think that you know an awful lot about what gods personal wishes are.
Are you having an identity crisis?

Anonymous said...

"You seem to think that you know an awful lot about what gods personal wishes are.
Are you having an identity crisis?"

Never stated that, but go ahead... "enlighten me", PLEASE!